Replacement Doctrines for the trinity

[John]

This thread is purely to find a doctrine that the bible teaches and hormonizes ALL scripture passages. feel free to defend the doctrine of the trinity if you believe in it, and/or make your case for your personal revelatoin.

I think that YHVH is the only God. Yeshua is lesser than YHVH, but higher than the angels. this could mean rank and position, but i think that it refers to a better creature altogether. Some one made the comment that this makes two Gods, a bid God and a little God, but this is a misunderstanding of what i believe. if i am the president, but i have someone under me who has authority over everyone else, but me, and then they have some one else under them who has authority over everyone but the president and the other person- this does make a big president, a little president and a Really little president. This makes a president and some of his chosen cabinet mambers really pwerful.

Yeshua is a unique creation. But he is a creation.

as for the Ruach HaKodesh-- i am undecided

[Never Looking Back]

I too believe that YHVH is the only God.

My personal position is that YHVH = the Father, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh.
The Father is fully YHVH
Yeshua is fully YHVH
The Ruach HaKodesh is fully YHVH

For my specific thoughts on the Ruach HaKodesh, and a defense of those thoughts, please see the thread that specifically deals with that topic. If requested, I can copy and paste all of what I said about the Ruach HaKodesh into this thread as well.

John, would you like me to copy that argument here? Or not?

If not, I will begin by making a case for Yeshua's deity.

[John]

go ahead and post your poistion on this. but do that all in one post.

go ahead and make your case for Yeshuas deity first.

i dont think that Yeshua is divine because of what he says and look at james 1 hwere is says God cannot be tampted neither tampteth he any man. then in matthew, it says yeshua was tempted of HaSatan! God cannot be tempted. so Yeshua is not God.

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 4, 2009 8:54:06 GMT -5 John said:

go ahead and post your poistion on this. but do that all in one post.

go ahead and make your case for Yeshuas deity first.

i dont think that Yeshua is divine because of what he says and look at james 1 hwere is says God cannot be tampted neither tampteth he any man. then in matthew, it says yeshua was tempted of HaSatan! God cannot be tempted. so Yeshua is not God.

Arguments can be made both for and against Yeshua's deity, so all believers in Yeshua need to decide what the evidence points to more. A theology or belief system should not be based on only one or two verses.

And most places in Scripture that seem to contradict other places should be able to be reconciled in some coherent way. Both sides of the viewpoint need to do this.

Yes, Yeshua was tempted by HaSatan. However, this can be explained by saying while on earth Yeshua had two natures -- a human nature and a divine nature. In order for Yeshua to be able to be a perfect sacrifice, He had to be placed in a position that in which He would be tempted. Where Adam lost, Yeshua had to be victorious, and the only way He could be victorious was if He fully experienced what all humans face -- including temptation. Yeshua was only tempted while He was on earth. He is not tempted now, nor was He before the incarnation. It was simply necessary so that He could be fully human and be able to live a perfect life.

I make this statement, in light of all of the evidence from the Bible.

[Never Looking Back]

What I am posting here is the evidence for His deity. Does it prove that Yeshua is YHVH? No, but I do believe a strong case can be made for His deity.

I would like to begin this discussion by looking at 2 Peter 1:1

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

The way that this part that is in bold is structured means that both "God" and "Savior" are titles that refer to the same person, and that person is Yeshua.

We must ask ourselves several questions here, then.
1.) How many gods are there? The answer that I find in Scripture is that there is only one God, and that is YHVH. So, to give Yeshua the title "God" is to acknowledge that He is YHVH.

To say that Yeshua isn't YHVH would suggest that there is another god besides YHVH.

2.) So what does this mean? Who must Yeshua be? You would have to say that there is either another god besides YHVH or you have to say that Yeshua is YHVH. There really are no other options that I can see with this.

I have met some people who deny Yeshua's deity and will claim that 2 Peter 1:1 is really talking about two different people (God being the first, and Savior being the second -- and only Savior applies to Yeshua). To do this would be to ignore the sentence structure. Even if a person were to make this argument, a person would still be stuck with Yeshua being Savior.

So then, at the very least, everyone who reads 2 Peter 1:1 should draw the conclusion that Yeshua is given the title Savior here. There is no way out of this.

If this is true, then Yeshua is Savior.

Now, let us see what YHVH has said about Himself elsewhere in Scripture, and what others have said about Him.

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the LORD, your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush and Seba in your stead.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.

Isaiah 45:15
Truly you are a God who hides himself,
O God and Savior of Israel.

Isaiah 45:21
Declare what is to be, present it--
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.

Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

They will say of me, `In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

Hosea 13:4
"But I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out of Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.

These verses, in and of themselves state explicitly that there is only one Savior, and that is YHVH. If Yeshua is Savior, then He would have to be YHVH. Furthermore, in Isaiah 45, YHVH makes the declaration that righteousness is only found in Him. If this is true, to make the statement "the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" is to acknowledge that Yeshua has righteousness, thus making him YHVH.

For Yeshua to be Savior, it sounds like He has to also be YHVH.

Please see these other verses:

Micah 7:7
But as for me, I watch in hope for the LORD,
I wait for God my Savior;
my God will hear me.

HAB 3:18 yet I will rejoice in the LORD,
I will be joyful in God my Savior.

Isaiah 49:26
I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the LORD, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

Isaiah 62:11
The LORD has made proclamation
to the ends of the earth:
"Say to the Daughter of Zion,
`See, your Savior comes!
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.' "

Isaiah 63:8
He said, "Surely they are my people,
sons who will not be false to me";
and so he became their Savior.

Jeremiah 14:8
O Hope of Israel,
its Savior in times of distress,
why are you like a stranger in the land,
like a traveler who stays only a night?

Deuteronomy 32:15
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
filled with food, he became heavy and sleek.
He abandoned the God who made him
and rejected the Rock his Savior.

2 Samuel 22:3
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield and the horn of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior--
from violent men you save me.

2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

1 Chronicles 16:35
Cry out, "Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise."

Psalm 18:46
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
Exalted be God my Savior!

Psalm 24:5
He will receive blessing from the LORD
and vindication from God his Savior.

Psalm 25:5
guide me in your truth and teach me,
for you are God my Savior,
and my hope is in you all day long.

Psalm 27:9
Do not hide your face from me,
do not turn your servant away in anger;
you have been my helper.
Do not reject me or forsake me,
O God my Savior.

Psalm 38:22
Come quickly to help me,
O Lord my Savior.

Psalm 42:5
Why are you downcast, O my soul?
Why so disturbed within me?
Put your hope in God,
for I will yet praise him,
my Savior and 6 my God.

Psalm 65:5
You answer us with awesome deeds of righteousness,
O God our Savior,
the hope of all the ends of the earth
and of the farthest seas,

Psalm 68:19
Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior,
who daily bears our burdens.
Selah

Psalm 79:9
Help us, O God our Savior,
for the glory of your name;
deliver us and forgive our sins
for your name's sake.

Psalm 85:4
Restore us again, O God our Savior,
and put away your displeasure toward us.

Isaiah 17:10
You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,

Looking at another verse from Isiah 45, we find this:

Isaiah 45:23 (Keep in mind that it is YHVH who is talking here)
By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.


Now check out what Philippians 2:10 says
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:10 says that this is done to the glory of the Father. This means that the Father is not the only one who is YHVH -- Yeshua must be YHVH as well. YHVH says that what He uttered cannot be revoked -- before Him every knee will bow and by Him every tongue will swear. In Philippians it says that every tongue will confess that Yeshua is Lord. That is the same thing as saying that they will swear by Him. They confess that He is their Savior, and that righteousness is only found in Him.

Philippians and Isaiah would be in contradiction unless both the Father and Yeshua are YHVH. Unless Yeshua is YHVH, the Father could not be glorified.

[Never Looking Back]

Isaiah 62:11
The LORD has made proclamation
to the ends of the earth:
"Say to the Daughter of Zion,
`See, your Savior comes!
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.' "


Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Revelation 22 has Yeshua say the same thing as what YHVH says in Isaiah 62. Both verses seem to be about Yeshua's Second Coming. Who is coming? Yeshua. This Savior is also YHVH, for He is the only Savior.


Isaiah 60:19
The sun will no more be your light by day,
nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.
Your sun will never set again,
and your moon will wane no more;
the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your days of sorrow will end.

Revelation 21:22
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If YHVH is the everlasting light in Isaiah and Yeshua is the lamp in Revelation, it seems that Yeshua must also be YHVH.

[Never Looking Back]

Isaiah 42:8
"I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols.

John 17:5
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:5 is part of Yeshua's prayer to the Father. If YHVH won't give His glory to another, then in order for Yeshua to share the Father's glory means that both the Father and Yeshua would have to be YHVH.

Yeshua is not the Father (for Yeshua is clearly addressing someone other than Himself and is saying that both He and the Father had the same glory before the world began). However, both Yeshua and the Father are YHVH. Yeshua is stating that He and the Father had the same glory. They shared it. Yeshua was with the Father before the world began. This would suggest that both He and the Father existed as YHVH. Or, in other words, at least two persons are YHVH.

[Never Looking Back]

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Alpha/Omega = Almighty = The One who is to come = Lord God

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Alpha/Omega = Beginning/End = God


Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Alpha/Omega = The One who is coming = Beginning/End = First/Last

Revelation 1:17
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

First/Last = Living .. “I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!”

Isaiah 44:6
"This is what the LORD says--
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.


Read Isaiah 48:12-16

48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

John 1:49
hen Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."

So King of Israel = first and last = and therefore God (according to Isaiah 44:6)

Other first/last verses:
Isaiah 41:4 Who has done this and carried it through,
calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD--with the first of them
and with the last--I am he."

Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Claiming to be the First/Last, Alpha/Omea, Beginning/End is a claim to be eternal - having no beginning or end.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

(Please note that I have heard that "Everlasting Father" here means possessor of eternity -- in other words, He is eternal)

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

Daniel 7:13-14
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

[Never Looking Back]

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Please note here, the preincarnate Yeshua is identified here as the Word, (or God the Word). The Word is eternal because it says "in the beginning was the Word." As I have heard, this is the same phrase that is used in Genesis 1 when it says "in the beginning." The Word was WITH God, and yet the Word was God. So that means that there have to be at least two people who are God (YHVH). With implies a face to face relationship. This would suggest that the Father and Yeshua are co-eternal, and both exist as YHVH.

If the Word (Yeshua) is called God here, as this verse explicitly states, and YHVH is the only God, then this implies that Yeshua is also YHVH.



John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

8:57 "You are not yet fifty years old, " the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

8:58 "I tell you the truth, " Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Yeshua here identifies Himself with YHVH, and declares that that is who He is. Those who were around Him fully understood what He was claiming, and were going to stone Him for it. If what Yeshua said here was not true, then He WOULD be blaspheming.


John 5:16
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Look at the way that Yeshua answered those who were making accusations against Him because of the good that He was doing on the Sabbath. Yeshua said that the Father is working on the Sabbath, and that He too was working on the Sabbath. His statement puts Him on equal standing with the Father, which would be a claim of full deity. This is exactly how they understood His statement. They considered what He said to be making Himself equal with God. I have heard that the very title "Son of God" is in and of itself a claim to be God.


John 10:25
10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

You see, Yeshua and the Father are both YHVH. There is a unity that they share, even though Yeshua is not the Father, they both are YHVH. Yeshua's statement here is another full claim to being YHVH.

Why?

Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am He!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 43:12-13
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed--
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?"


Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

To me, this verse means that Yeshua is fully YHVH, just as the Father is fully YHVH. Yeshua is not part God, and He is not another god.


Philippians 2:5
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, (Note the - who, being in very nature God part - that means that Jesus is God, according to His nature or His essence)

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire."

(Please note that firstborn does not mean created or anything like that. Rather, it means that He has supremacy, and is firstborn in the sense of inheriting all things. The firstborn son in biblical times inherited everything. Thus, Yeshua has supremacy in all things).

1:8 But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end."

The author of Hebrews is suggesting that the Father spoke these things of and to Yeshua. This means that the Father is calling Yeshua God. YHVH says that He is the only God. If this is the case, than the Father has to be acknowledging here that Yeshua is also YHVH, just as the Father is YHVH. The Father explicitly is identifying Yeshua as YHVH. YHVH is the only Creator, yet here the Father says that Yeshua participated in creation.

The conclusion, then?

That both the Father and Yeshua are YHVH.

[Never Looking Back]

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.' "

Isaiah 41:4
Who has done this and carried it through,
calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD--with the first of them
and with the last--I am he."

Isaiah 43:10
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

Isaiah 43:13
Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?"

Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more.

Isaiah 46:4
Even to your old age and gray hairs
I am he, I am he who will sustain you.
I have made you and I will carry you;
I will sustain you and I will rescue you.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.

Isaiah 51:12
"I, even I, am he who comforts you.
Who are you that you fear mortal men,
the sons of men, who are but grass,
that you forget the LORD your Maker,
who stretched out the heavens
and laid the foundations of the earth,
that you live in constant terror every day
because of the wrath of the oppressor,
who is bent on destruction?
For where is the wrath of the oppressor?

John 13:19
"I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He. 20 I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

6:43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

John 8:24
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

John 8:28
28So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 8:58
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!

John 10:7
Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Matthew 14:27
But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid."

[Never Looking Back]

Titus 2:13
13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

Here is Yeshua's own argument for His deity:
Matthew 22:41
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David, " they replied.
He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him `Lord'? For he says,
" `The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." `
If then David calls him `Lord, ' how can he be his son?" 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

I've heard that what Yeshua is saying here is this -- how can the Messiah just be the son of David? If David called Him is Lord, then there must be more to Him than just being human. If it is the ancestor that is usually more revered, for David to call his descendant "Lord" is highly unusual. This suggests that the Messiah must be something more, such as being YHVH.

In fact, the following passages strongly hint at this:
Isaiah 45:22
Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
ISA 45:23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

Isaiah 64:5
You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


Yeshua has to be YHVH in order for us to be able to be saved. YHVH had to come to our help because only He could save us. Humanity could not save itself. Since everyone is sinful, YHVH needed to do what we could not do, and it is the Word who became human, lived a perfect life, and then died for us so that we COULD be saved. Only YHVH was in the position to save us.

Zachariah 12:10
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Please note that in this passage, Zachariah 12:10, that there YHVH is speaking, but He uses two pronouns for Himself -- "me," and "him." This suggests two persons in this passage who are YHVH.

There are more verses that speak of Yeshua's deity, and there are more arguments that I could use, but I think that this shall suffice.

[Never Looking Back]

Copied over from the other thread:

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Starting in part of Nehemiah 9:5
"Blessed be your glorious name, and may it be exalted above all blessing and praise. 6 You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Isaiah 42:5
This is what God the LORD says--
he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:


Ezekiel 37
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know."
Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, `Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' "

I have always heard that the Ruach HaKodesh is the empowerer, and that He brings life. It sounds like the Ruach HaKodesh brings physical life, but Yeshua said He also brings spiritual life. If only YHVH brings life, then that would mean that the Ruach HaKodesh would have to be YHVH.

It is often taught that the Ruach HaKodesh is responsible for many things, including regeneration and sanctification.

Yeshua said this in John chapter 3.
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!

5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

I believe that the Father, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh are equally involved in salvation. The Father sent Yeshua, and it is Yeshua who lived the perfect life and died for us bearing our sins, and yet it is the Ruach HaKodesh who brings eternal life to a person through belief in Yeshua. This would only work if the Father, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh were all YHVH (God).

It is the Ruach HaKodesh who seals believers and begins the process of sanctification (to sanctify means to make holy).

In fact, for the Ruach HaKodesh to be able to sanctify, He needs to be YHVH. (To be explained in my next post).

Apr 2, 2009 23:28:35 GMT -5 pioneer said:

The Ruach HaQodesh is the Power of Y H V H -, Sam Peak my learned teacher, likens Y H V H -to the Invisible Man, and the HS is when He puts on his overcoat, then you can see him working.

That is interesting.

But, that does not work for me. It is true that the Ruach HaKodesh is associated with empowerment (He does empower people and give spiritual gifts), but I would not say that He is the power of YHVH. Perhaps I have misunderstood what you were saying. I do believe that the Ruach HaKodesh is the empowering member of the Godhead. If this is what you meant by what you said, then we may be in agreement. If, however, you meant that the Ruach HaKodesh was simply the name for YHVH's power, then we are not in agreement.

If He were simply the power of YHVH, then it would imply that the Ruach HaKodesh was impersonal. He would not refer to Himself using personal pronouns ("I" and "Me"), as He does in in Acts 13.

1 In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

4 The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus. 5 When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the Jewish synagogues. John was with them as their helper.


Furthermore, Yeshua refers to the Ruach HaKodesh as if He were a person and not just simply YHVH's power.

John 14:15-17
15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 14:25-27
25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

John 15:26
26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:5-11
5 "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, `Where are you going?' 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

John 16:12-15
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

In Ephesians we find this:
4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.


I would like to make some comments about these passages. The John passages are Yeshua's description of what the Ruach HaKodesh is to do. If the Ruach HaKodesh is simply the power of YHVH, then Yeshua's statements make no sense. First, why call the Ruach HaKodesh a Counselor? Also, how can someone know a power or force? Yet, Yeshua says that people can and will know the Ruach HaKodesh. A power cannot live anywhere.

Furthermore, Yeshua talks about how He was sent by the Father. Now He is talking about asking the Father to send the Ruach HaKodesh. Only persons can be "sent" in that sense. How can a power teach? Again, Yeshua said that the Ruach HaKodesh will teach us and guide us. Plus the Ruach HaKodesh speaks. He spokes in Acts and He speaks at other points in the Bible. The Ruach HaKodesh is also to remind us of everything that Yeshua said. In other words He is to point people to Yeshua. The Ruach HaKodesh is also to testify about Yeshua. Finally, He convicts the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment.

According to Ephesians 4, He can experience emotion and feel grieved. He has feelings. Once again, He's referred to as a "whom."

To take this further, the Ruach HaKodesh makes decisions.

1 Corinthians 12
12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

So, in other words, the Ruach HaKodesh determines (or decides) what spiritual gifts He wants to give to who He wants to give it to.


Sanctification

Exodus 31:12
Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, `You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.

Leviticus 20:7
" `Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy.

Leviticus 21:13
" `The woman he marries must be a virgin. 14 He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people, 15 so he will not defile his offspring among his people. I am the LORD, who makes him holy. ' "

Leviticus 21:16
The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Say to Aaron: `For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy. '

Leviticus 22:9
" `The priests are to keep my requirements so that they do not become guilty and die for treating them with contempt. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.

Leviticus 22:14
" `If anyone eats a sacred offering by mistake, he must make restitution to the priest for the offering and add a fifth of the value to it. 15 The priests must not desecrate the sacred offerings the Israelites present to the LORD 16 by allowing them to eat the sacred offerings and so bring upon them guilt requiring payment. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.' "

Leviticus 22:31
"Keep my commands and follow them. I am the LORD. 32 Do not profane my holy name. I must be acknowledged as holy by the Israelites. I am the LORD, who makes you holy 33 and who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am the LORD."

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Romans 15:16
16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit

1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

If YHVH says that He is the one who sanctifies (or makes holy), then it seems to be a strong argument for why the Ruah HaKodesh has to also be YHVH.


Isaiah 48:17 is very similar to something that Yeshua says of the Ruach HaKodesh.

This is what the LORD says--
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you what is best for you,
who directs you in the way you should go.

Luke 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.

John 14:25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

And finally, here are two passages that explicitly refer to the Ruach HaKodesh as God.

From Acts chapter 5
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

5:9 Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

2 Corinthians 3
3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Since there is only one God (YHVH is the only God), to call the Ruach HaKodesh "God" is the same thing as calling Him YHVH.

The Ruach HaKodesh is consistently linked throughout Scripture with the Father and Yeshua, and therefore, I would say that once again, this is evidence for the Ruach HaKodesh being YHVH. Plus, He does things that YHVH says He does.


The Ruach HaKodesh is linked with the Father and Yeshua

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Ephesians 2:18
18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Ephesians 3:11-16
11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.

For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,

Ephesians 5:18-20
18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:1-5
Paul, Silas and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

Grace and peace to you.

We always thank God for all of you, mentioning you in our prayers. 3 We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.


The Father, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh each participated in the following things:

Raised Yeshua from the dead.
The Father - Romans 6:4; Acts 3:26; 1 Thessalonians 1:10
Yeshua - John 2:19-21; John 10:17-18
The Ruach HaKodesh - Romans 8:11
YHVH - Hebrews 13:20; Acts 13:30; Acts 17:31 (which would suggest that the Father, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh are YHVH).

Is God
The Father - Ephesians 4:6
Yeshua - Titus 2:13; John 1:1; John 20:28
The Ruach HaKodesh - Acts 5:3-4
The one and only True God - Deuteronomy 4:35

Created the world
The Father - John 14:2
Yeshua - Colossians 1:16-17; John 1:1-3
The Ruach HaKodesh - Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30
YHVH - Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:3

Saves and regenerates people
The Father - 1 Peter 1:3
Yeshua - John 5:21; John 4:14
The Ruach HaKodesh - John 3:16; Titus 3:5
YHVH - 1 John 3:9

Justifies people
The Father - Jeremiah 23:6; 2 Corinthians 5:19
Yeshua - Romans 5:9; Romans 10:4; 2 Corinthians 5:19, 21
The Ruach HaKodesh - 1 Corinthians 6:11; Galatians 5:5
YHVH - Romans 4:6; Romans 9:33

Sanctifies people
The Father - Jude 1
Yeshua - Titus 2:14
The Ruach HaKodesh - 1 Peter 1:2
YHVH - Exodus 31:13

Propitiated God's just anger against man for his sins
The Father - 1 John 4:14; John 3:16; John 17:5; John 18:11
Yeshua - Matthew 26:28; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2
The Ruach HaKodesh - Hebrews 9:14
YHVH - 2 Corinthians 5:1; Acts 20:28

This concludes my thoughts on why I think that the Ruach HaKodesh is YHVH.

Apr 3, 2009 21:47:13 GMT -5 John said:

i think that the Ruach HaKodesh is a spirit. I think either 2 things: the Ruach HaKodesh is either less in rank than YHVH and Yeshua, or the Ruach HaKodesh is a personified spirit of YHVH, but not YHVH himself.

Maybe this will help clarify things:
1 Corinthians 2
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

The Holy Spirit certainly can connect with the part of us that would be our spirit, and make it new. And it seems that YHVH has a specific part of Himself that is the the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), but this "part" is also a Person (meaning that He is personal and can do all of the things that Scripture says He can do.) The Spirit is still YHVH, in my opinion because Scripture seems to point in that direction (especially Acts chapter 5).

The idea of Him being called a Spirit at all gives Him the characteristic of Personhood, since demons are referred to as evil spirits. Satan has personhood and so do the demons. The Holy Spirit is a spirit, but He is also YHVH.

Think about it this way -- if we humans have a part of us that is a spirit, isn't that spirit still us? Isn't your spirit still you? In the same way, YHVH's Spirit is still Him. Now this analogy somewhat breaks down because we are speaking of YHVH, and we do not really know how He "works." We are mere humans and we can never have full grasp on Him, and we will not know until we are actually with Him in heaven.

If the Ruach HaKodesh is not YHVH, you would need to explain Acts chapter 5. YHVH is either the only God, or you have another god called the Ruach HaKodesh who is beneath YHVH. And you would also need to explain why He is linked consistently with the Father and Yeshua. Finally, you would need to explain why He does the things that YHVH says that He does. You would need to explain how He could participate in creating things when YHVH has said in Scripture that He alone created the heavens and the earth.

i also have figured that perhaps the seven archangaels that stand at the throne of YHVH are not actually angels, but personifications of the Ruach HaKodesh... in other words, 7 aspects of the spirit (see isaiah, i think ch. 61) are each personified in a certain angel. This means that Yeshua really DID defeat teh serpent (revelation) since mikhael is only a personification (not a literal angel) of the spirit of YHVH through Yeshua.

do you understand what i am saying?

Isaiah 61 is a Messianic passage. Yeshua quoted from it and said that it was fulfilled in Him.

The passage does speak to the fact that it was the Ruach HaKodesh who empowered Yeshua to perform the miracles that He did, and that Yeshua was anointed with the Ruach HaKodesh.

The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,

because I'm not sure what exact verses you meant, I'll stop quoting it there. In reading the rest of the passage, it all seems to point to Yeshua and what He was called to do, and what He in turn calls us to do. But it all points to Yeshua.

Yeshua defeated Satan with His death and resurrection. Yeshua's resurrection meant that Satan and his demons were doomed, and they knew it. They were afraid when Yeshua rose from the dead. They are already defeated. When Yeshua returns, they will get what they deserve.

No, I do not quite understand what you are saying here.

talk about Yeshua in a thread i will create: 'replacement doctrines for the trinity'

Yes, Yeshua does need His own thread. I will most certainly post about Him in a similar manner to what I have done in this Ruach HaKodesh thread.

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 3, 2009 21:53:50 GMT -5 John said:

This thread is purely to find a doctrine that the bible teaches and hormonizes ALL scripture passages. feel free to defend the doctrine of the trinity if you believe in it, and/or make your case for your personal revelatoin.

I think that YHVH is the only God. Yeshua is lesser than YHVH, but higher than the angels. this could mean rank and position, but i think that it refers to a better creature altogether. Some one made the comment that this makes two Gods, a bid God and a little God, but this is a misunderstanding of what i believe. if i am the president, but i have someone under me who has authority over everyone else, but me, and then they have some one else under them who has authority over everyone but the president and the other person- this does make a big president, a little president and a Really little president. This makes a president and some of his chosen cabinet mambers really pwerful.

Yeshua is a unique creation. But he is a creation.

as for the Ruach HaKodesh-- i am undecided

So then you believe in a sort of tri-hiarchy instead of YHVH being triune?

[John]

The Word was WITH God, and yet the Word was God. So that means that there have to be at least two people who are God (YHVH). With implies a face to face relationship. This would suggest that the Father and Yeshua are co-eternal, and both exist as YHVH.

If the Word (Yeshua) is called God here, as this verse explicitly states, and YHVH is the only God, then this implies that Yeshua is also YHVH.

is this not polytheism to say that there are two YHVH's?

also, i will have to look at the names of 'God' here. i do not know. i am a little shaken by your evidence. you make a good case. but let me meditate on it, and pray and i will get back to you.

So then you believe in a sort of tri-hiarchy instead of YHVH being triune?

i thought i did. but now i am a liitle shaken.

i still say however, in light of historical evidence, that the trinity that we have now was a later doctrine formed at the council of Nicea (at least, thats when it got popular), and that IF yeshua is indeed divine, than we need to find what Yeshua himself, as well as the early disciples and apostles taught. but i have indeed been shaken by your evidence.

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 4, 2009 20:31:32 GMT -5 John said:

is this not polytheism to say that there are two YHVH's?

also, i will have to look at the names of 'God' here. i do not know. i am a little shaken by your evidence. you make a good case. but let me meditate on it, and pray and i will get back to you.

No, because there is still one YHVH -- there is just more than one person who is Him. He's all one God.

Yeshua said these two things:
Mark 12:29
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

and

John 10:25
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

Therefore, Yeshua seems to interpret the word "one" in Deuteronomy 6:4 as meaning a plural unity or a united one. Yeshua quoted from it in Mark 12:29 and clearly believed that there was only one God. Yet at the same time, He linked Himself, the Father, and the Ruach HaKodesh in such a way that it can be argued that all three are YHVH. This would indicate that there are not two or three YHVH's. There is one YHVH who is triune...or in other words that within the unity of the Godhead, there are three persons. Or, yet another way -- YHVH is three persons.

i still say however, in light of historical evidence, that the trinity that we have now was a later doctrine formed at the council of Nicea (at least, thats when it got popular), and that IF yeshua is indeed divine, than we need to find what Yeshua himself, as well as the early disciples and apostles taught. but i have indeed been shaken by your evidence.

It is true that the doctrine of the trinity was not officially written down until the Council of Nicea, but those that supported the doctrine did find their support for it from Scripture. It was not something that was made up on the whim. There were believers who held to a triune idea of YHVH way before the Council. Many would argue that Paul, in his writings, made several trinitarian statements. Scripture itself is older than Nicea. Therefore it is in Scripture that we should look.

You are right, we should all be praying and asking the Lord for guidance. We should not just accept something just because others accept it.

[Never Looking Back]

What I'm trying to say here is that I believe YHVH to be a triune Being -- and that this is how He exists.

Can we as human beings understand YHVH completely? No way. Our human logic is never going to fully grasp who YHVH is or what He is like.

All we can do is catch glimpses of what He is like from Scripture.

I believe that YHVH is triune because that is what evidence from Scripture points to. Can I explain how this is possible? No. I just see this in Scripture, and leave it at that.

The Trinity doctrine captures as best we can what God seems to have revealed to us in Scripture of Himself. Is it a perfect explanation? No. No human can understand exactly how YHVH can exist like this, which is why many people say that the Trinity doctrine is a mystery. But we do not have to understand. All we have to do is be faithful to what YHVH has shown us of Himself. That is all He asks.

[pioneer]

The bible says that there are Seven Spirits of God +Yeshua+ HS = NINE

The bible says Yeshua is the word of God, the word made flesh, the image of the unseen God, the firstborn of all creation.

Y H V H can not die, Yeshua died! The Lamb of God had to die!

Again all you get as a reward for believing in your triune god is you get to call yourself a Christian!

I believe the bible not some man made dogma! There is not mention on any book of the bible of being a mystery handshake or secert passcode. This is from a "Lawless Christian"!

Shalom

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 4, 2009 22:19:42 GMT -5 pioneer said:

The bible says that there are Seven Spirits of God +Yeshua+ HS = NINE

The bible says Yeshua is the word of God, the word made flesh, the image of the unseen God, the firstborn of all creation.

Y H V H can not die, Yeshua died! The Lamb of God had to die!

Again all you get as a reward for believing in your triune god is you get to call yourself a Christian!

I believe the bible not some man made dogma! There is not mention on any book of the bible of being a mystery handshake or secert passcode. This is from a "Lawless Christian"!

Shalom

HaShilush HaKadosh The Holy Trinity

www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Trinity/trinity.html

The Jewishness of the Trinity

Although the word "Trinity" (Hashilush Hakadosh) does not directly appear in the Scriptures, it is an entirely Jewish concept, derived from both the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah. Scripturally, God is revealed as "triune" in some of the following ways:

Plural Names - Elohim, the third word in the Tanakh, is a plural form. This Name is often associated with singular verbs, though interestingly sometimes appears with plural forms (as in Genesis 35:7, Psalm 58:11).

2. Plural Pronouns - The LORD God, speaking in Genesis 1:26, says "Let us make man in our image and in our likeness" (see also Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8).

3. "Creators" - In Ecclesiastes 12:1 it is written, "Remember your Creators in the days of your youth," and in Psalm 149:2 Israel is commanded to rejoice in his Makers. In Genesis 1:1-3, God (Elohim), the Spirit of God (Ruach Elohim), and the Word of God (and God said...), are all involved in the creation of the universe.

4. Plurality within the Godhead - King David writes: "The LORD (YHVH) says to my Lord (Adonai): sit at my right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet (Psalm 110:1), and Psalm 45:6-7 says "Your throne, O God (Elohim), is forever and ever....therefore God, Your God (Elohim), has anointed You with the oil of joy more than Your fellows."

5. Isaiah 48:12-16 - In this passage, the "First and the Last," declares that "the Lord God has sent Me and His Spirit. The Creator who is speaking claims to have been sent by the Lord God (YHVH) and His Spirit (Ruach).

6. The Angel of the LORD - This mysterious Angel was treated as God Himself, exercising divine prerogatives and receiving worship (see Genesis 16:7, 9, 11; Exodus 3:2-6; Judges 13:21-22).

7. Oneness (Achdut) - In the Shema we read, "Shema Yisrael (Hear, 0 Israel): Adonai Eloheinu (the Lord our Gods), Adonai Echad (the Lord is one)." Interestingly, the word echad in Hebrew can imply a unity in diversity (the word for one and only one, i.e., unique, is more often rendered as yachid). For example, in Exodus 26:6 the parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that "it shall be one (echad) tabernacle," and Ezekiel spoke of two "sticks" (representing fragmented Israel) as being reunited into one: "and they shall be one (echad) stick in My hand" (Ezekiel 37:19). Moses also uses echad in Genesis 2:24 when he says: "And they (husband and wife) will become one flesh (basar echad)."

8. The Tevilah (Baptism) of Yeshua - At the baptism of Yeshua we see the Holy Spirit descending as a Dove and the Father proclaim, "You are my well-beloved Son; in You I am well pleased" (Luke 3:21).

9. Yeshua Revealed the Trinity - The Lord Jesus plainly spoke of the Trinity by commanding His disciples to baptize others in the Name (singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). He also equated Himself with the Father (John 8:58; 10:30; 14:8-9).

10. The Father is God - Isaiah 64:8; Malachi 2:10; John 8:54; etc.

11. Yeshua is God - 1 Tim. 3:16; John 1:1-14; 9:38; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8,9, 5:6; John 5:18; Rom.9:5; Phil 2:5-11; etc.

12. The Holy Spirit is God - Acts 5:3-4; John 4:24; Luke 12:10; 2 Cor. 3:17;cp. 1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19; Acts 13:2; Heb. 3:7-11; etc.

13. Yeshua's Followers Taught the Trinity - Jesus' followers ascribed to Him divine status as co-equal with the Father. Many "triadic" formulas also appear in the B'rit Chadashah, such as 1 Cor. 12:4-6, 2 Cor. 13:14, 1 Peter 1:2, Eph 4:4-6, and Matt. 28:19.

14. Philosophical Justification - Though a mystery, the Trinity is itself a coherent concept once you consider that there are various "tri-unities" in our own experience as human beings. For example, we experience the world around us as a triunity of space, time, and matter. Space is also three dimensional (width, height, and depth); and time is composed of past, present, and future. Matter itself is composed of proton, electron, and neutron. We also experience ourselves as a triunity of body, soul, and spirit.

15. The Marriage Union is a picture of the Trinity - When a man and woman are joined in the bonds of holy marriage, they are said to be basar echad - one flesh. This union itself, however, constitutes the spirit of the love that itself is creative and life-giving.

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 4, 2009 22:19:42 GMT -5 pioneer said:

The bible says that there are Seven Spirits of God +Yeshua+ HS = NINE

The bible says Yeshua is the word of God, the word made flesh, the image of the unseen God, the firstborn of all creation.

Y H V H can not die, Yeshua died! The Lamb of God had to die!

Again all you get as a reward for believing in your triune god is you get to call yourself a Christian!

A person should not attempt to build a biblical doctrine based solely on Revelation. There are things that are to be taken literally in Revelation, and there are a lot of things that are to be taken symbolically. The places that talk about seven spirits of God are, as best as I can tell, to be taken symbolically. A literal interpretation does not make much sense.

Furthermore, these 7 spirits do not appear to be YHVH Himself. Rather, they are worshiping Him and are before His throne.

Benny Hinn also teaches that there are nine in the Godhead. Plus, your math does not add up. 7 + 3 = 10, not 9.

Could there be more than just the Father, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh? Yes. But the only support you would be able to find for it is a few passages from Revelation. The evidence for it is very weak. No where are the Father, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh linked to these seven spirits. Yeshua never taught on seven spirits of YHVH. No where are any "seven spirits of God" called YHVH, no where does Scripture have them do what only YHVH does.

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 4, 2009 22:19:42 GMT -5 pioneer said:

The bible says that there are Seven Spirits of God +Yeshua+ HS = NINE

Nine would be the trinity cubed. No biblical support for it that I can see.

Again all you get as a reward for believing in your triune god is you get to call yourself a Christian!

I believe the bible not some man made dogma! There is not mention on any book of the bible of being a mystery handshake or secert passcode. This is from a "Lawless Christian"!

Shalom

Where have I said in this thread that the trinity was a mystery handshake? Where have I said it was a secret passcode?

I do derive my beliefs from the Bible.

Your post here is extremely derogatory to both Christians and Messianic trinitarians, and I think that you are reading into the topic of the trinity your own bias against it. There is no way that we can have a conversation about it if you are reading something into it that I have not said, and I do not believe, then blaming me for believing something I do not believe.

Therefore, I think it best for me to leave this topic. I have posted my argument for why I believe it is biblical to believe that YHVH is triune.

If anyone wishes to comment on what I have said, please send me a private message. We can discuss it that way.

I would be glad to read other people's viewpoints on this thread, whether you agree with me or not. I will NOT engage in a fight about this. Each person must make up their own mind what they think. People should not believe it just because another person tells them to. In the same way, a person should not disbelieve it simply because other people tell them to.

I encourage you all to go to Scripture and pray to the Lord about. If, after you have done this, you are convinced that YHVH is not triune, then fine. I have done this and come to the conclusion that YHVH is triune.

This is my final post on this thread. Thank you all for taking the time to read what I wrote.