|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 11:32:01 GMT -5
The bible says that there are Seven Spirits of God +Yeshua+ HS = NINE Nine would be the trinity cubed. No biblical support for it that I can see. Where have I said in this thread that the trinity was a mystery handshake? Where have I said it was a secret passcode? I do derive my beliefs from the Bible. Your post here is extremely derogatory to both Christians and Messianic trinitarians, and I think that you are reading into the topic of the trinity your own bias against it. There is no way that we can have a conversation about it if you are reading something into it that I have not said, and I do not believe, then blaming me for believing something I do not believe. Therefore, I think it best for me to leave this topic. I have posted my argument for why I believe it is biblical to believe that YHVH is triune. If anyone wishes to comment on what I have said, please send me a private message. We can discuss it that way. I would be glad to read other people's viewpoints on this thread, whether you agree with me or not. I will NOT engage in a fight about this. Each person must make up their own mind what they think. People should not believe it just because another person tells them to. In the same way, a person should not disbelieve it simply because other people tell them to. I encourage you all to go to Scripture and pray to the Lord about. If, after you have done this, you are convinced that YHVH is not triune, then fine. I have done this and come to the conclusion that YHVH is triune. This is my final post on this thread. Thank you all for taking the time to read what I wrote. "Your post here is extremely derogatory to both Christians and Messianic trinitarians" That was the intent, to degrade the dogma, if you and other trinitarians are offended that is your problem. Mine is to keep out theory and promote the "Truth" printed in our bibles. Todah Rabah Shalom Baruch Hashem OBTW, the seven spirits of God, not biblical? Jesus and paraclete? Go figure!? LOL |
|
|
|
Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 5, 2009 12:19:22 GMT -5
That was the intent, to degrade the dogma, if you and other trinitarians are offended that is your problem. Mine is to keep out theory and promote the "Truth" printed in our bibles. Todah Rabah Shalom Baruch Hashem OBTW, the seven spirits of God, not biblical? Jesus and paraclete? Go figure!? LOL Okay, so I had to post one more time. When I don't agree with someone I don't make a point of trying to offend them or degrading their beliefs. If you don't agree with someone, fine. A person can be more tactful. Make a case for what you do believe and why you think that another viewpoint is incorrect. But please do this in a RESPECTFUL way. All I know is this -- I love Jesus and I see Him all over the Bible. For me, the entire Bible points to His deity. My personal viewpoint is that the Messiah MUST be YHVH, just as the Father is YHVH. So many things confirm this for me. He is worshiped (only YHVH can be rightly worshiped), and He accepted that worship. Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" 14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. Daniel 7 7:13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. Daniel 7:26 " `But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.' MT 2:9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. 12 And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route. MT 14:32 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God." T 28:8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me. MT 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." LK 24:50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God. JN 9:37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped himJesus is rightly deserving of worship because He IS YHVH, just as the Father is YHVH. If He is not YHVH, then how could He demand the place in people's hearts that only YHVH should occupy (first place/first love)? MT 10:37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. |
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 12:40:54 GMT -5
This is written to those who might be swayed by an eloquent knitting together snippets of scripture that tends to make Jesus into God and Y H V H into a multiple in defference to scripture that clearly say He is Echad/One. The bible is truth, if you can't find the word trinity in it, "It Is A Lie." And that is the "Truth"!
The Holy bible, tells us that God/ Y H V H is one, not two, not three, not four, not five, ect. & ect. It states Yeshua is the son of God, not God, not sometimes god, a human made in the image of God. Adam was the only one before Yeshua to carry that term (In the image of God) Christians apply that to all humans, after Adam sinned he tarnished his image, he had to be covered with (according to the Sages) with the skin of the serpent! I think that is far, far from the image of God, the Christians say we(humans) are born with a propehensity to sin, does this look to you to be an image of the one and only Holy God/Spirit? I tkink not.
Yeshua now was the second man Adam, created in the Image of God and He did not tarnish that Image so remained in the Image, by His being the "Lamb of God", Y H V H 's vehicle to bring Salvation to sinful humans, through trials by fire are we brought to the image of the creator, when a Silversmith refines Silver he holds it over the flames until he sees his image in the molten Silver, he then knows the dross is all gone out of it and it is ready to be cast.
The Creator Y H V H is our Silversmith.
I am still awaitng a scriptural evidence of a reward for trinity? Sad to say that I will die before someone can find it. Just like many Ministers have offered a reward for anyone who can find the words "Immortal Soul" anywhere in scripture, to this date no one has claimed the reward.
But with trinity you can claim rhe "only" reward, to be a Christian!
Well I for one do not want that title, it was coined by detractors of the Way, Pagan Greeks.
I have always wondered why people with a God given title, a part of the "Living Torah" "I am the Way." And carry proudly the denigrating name given by Pagans? Go figure!?
BTW, 1Tim.1:8-11
Now we know the Law is Good, if anyone uses it Lawfully. (9) understanding this, that the Law is not laid down for the Just, but for the Lawless---- .
So to any one who consciders himself a believer, you must be a commandment keeper...
If one is offended by being called Lawless, take it up with Sha'ul! Or change your mind and let Y H V H change your heart.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Apr 5, 2009 13:24:20 GMT -5
pioneer... i do want to know however how you can explain away that YHVH said he was saviour, a title of the mashiach? i do not know.
i think that everyone here so far has presented awesome evidence to their beliefes. however, i do not want this to turn into a fight.
never looking back:
you dont have to leave the thread; you can still discuss this... just do it in a way that you think is right.
pioneer:
dont degrade beliefs. we are here to discuss them. i am no fan of the trinity. however, i dont think that we should offend people on purpose because of their bleifs. i wouldnt have minded you stating what you did as long as you didnt actually mean to offend someone by it.
i would like both of you to continue in a debate however. It is an intruigueing discussion that i am haveing a hard time keeping up with, lol.
shalom,
john
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 14:04:36 GMT -5
pioneer... i do want to know however how you can explain away that YHVH said he was saviour, a title of the mashiach? i do not know. i think that everyone here so far has presented awesome evidence to their beliefes. however, i do not want this to turn into a fight. never looking back: you dont have to leave the thread; you can still discuss this... just do it in a way that you think is right. pioneer: dont degrade beliefs. we are here to discuss them. i am no fan of the trinity. however, i dont think that we should offend people on purpose because of their bleifs. i wouldnt have minded you stating what you did as long as you didnt actually mean to offend someone by it. i would like both of you to continue in a debate however. It is an intruigueing discussion that i am haveing a hard time keeping up with, lol. shalom, john # 1 I am not degrading people, I am degrading a dogma, if one takes it personal it is their problem! #2 Sha'ul uses this style all over his writings, shoul we tear out his writings? Because someone is offended, put amuzzle on it! How politically correct? ["i do want to know however how you can explain away that YHVH said he was saviour, a title of the mashiach? i do not know."] Explain away! No way. Y H V H is our salvation so says Torah/Chumach, Yeshua is the vehicle of the salvation. Read Esther, how Mordicai in the Name of the King sends out the proclaimations of the King. Yeshua in his own words came in the Name of Y H V H , He gives us the right to ask IN HIS NAME! Again I have never call a person a name! My attack is on dogma! If one holds the dog ma too close he gets fleas. Folks get a life! Not everything in life is soft and cuddly, barbed wire is there as a fence, it only takes a few times for a dumb animal to respect it's power. John, read my PM and on the staff thread, I may be? |
|
|
|
Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 5, 2009 14:47:38 GMT -5
How do you account for Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
To me, this is an absolutely clear statement by Paul that the Messiah is God. Since you do not believe that the Messiah is YHVH, how do you explain this?
You are left with one of two conclusions:
1.) YHVH is not the only God, and Yeshua is some sort of demi-god. Paul is making the case that the Messiah is another god.
2.) YHVH is the one and only God, and Yeshua is YHVH (though when seen in light of other Scripture, so are the Father and the Ruach HaKodesh.) Paul is making the case that the Messiah is YHVH.
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 16:05:29 GMT -5
How do you account for Romans 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. To me, this is an absolutely clear statement by Paul that the Messiah is God. Since you do not believe that the Messiah is YHVH, how do you explain this? You are left with one of two conclusions: 1.) YHVH is not the only God, and Yeshua is some sort of demi-god. Paul is making the case that the Messiah is another god. 2.) YHVH is the one and only God, and Yeshua is YHVH (though when seen in light of other Scripture, so are the Father and the Ruach HaKodesh.) Paul is making the case that the Messiah is YHVH. Get RSV a real word for word translation. to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. [glow=red,2,300]God who is over all be blessed for ever[/glow]. Amen. Notice a period instead of a comma. [ "Paul is making the case that the Messiah is YHVH."] Only in your mind. Context Sha'ul is decrying the fate of his beloved people Israel all through Ro.9 and 10 then in 11 he sees the light and is being uplifted and realizes that it is in time "All Israel shall be saved. Read the intros to every book of the writings of the Disciples, not a one of them save one give homage to the HS, not any of them make a case for a triune Godhead. May I add my own? #3 Yeshua is the sent one in the Hashem of Y H V H to be the vehicle of redemption of all who shema v'shemar. It is abundantly clear that Y H V H has willed to His only begotten son the title of King of King and Lord of Lords, and to those who are co-heirs they are also sons of God and assend to the City of God. Show me one scripture to the reward of believing in a trune God. You can't! IMO case closed. |
|
|
|
Post by John on Apr 5, 2009 16:06:39 GMT -5
i think i worded a few words wrong pioneer... but okay. do whatever. i mean...if you do something that is OUT THERE, than i will warn you, but i trust you.
never looking back: again, your evidence is overwhelming. but i think that a lot of it is based off of misunderstanding of titles. so i will eventually get to debate al of your evidence. slowly however, because you presented alot.
Yeshua is Adonai over all, but this does not make him YHVH. he is ruler over all (except YHVH), justlike metatron.
wow. you know what... i am going to have to go one post at a time for you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 5, 2009 16:28:50 GMT -5
How do you account for Romans 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. To me, this is an absolutely clear statement by Paul that the Messiah is God. Since you do not believe that the Messiah is YHVH, how do you explain this? You are left with one of two conclusions: 1.) YHVH is not the only God, and Yeshua is some sort of demi-god. Paul is making the case that the Messiah is another god. 2.) YHVH is the one and only God, and Yeshua is YHVH (though when seen in light of other Scripture, so are the Father and the Ruach HaKodesh.) Paul is making the case that the Messiah is YHVH. Get RSV a real word for word translation. to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. [glow=red,2,300]God who is over all be blessed for ever[/glow]. Amen. Notice a period instead of a comma. Okay then, how about the NASB? That too is a word -for- word translation, and is said by many biblical scholars, both liberal and conservative, to be one of the most literal translations available. 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. Even if the RSV rendering is right (putting a period after Christ), "God" would still be referring to Christ because that is the context of the passage. It is talking about the Messiah. How can YHVH allow something that is not Him to be called King of kings and Lord of lords in the same sense that He holds that title? That title is the absolute highest title anyone can have. There cannot be two King of kings/Lord of lords. Yes, Yeshua is the sent one, but both the sent one and the sender are YHVH. |
|
|
|
Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 5, 2009 16:33:02 GMT -5
Since we cannot agree on the translation of Romans 9:5, what about Titus 2:13?
I'll quote it from the NASB, for accuracy.
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
How is this translated in the RSV?
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 16:46:16 GMT -5
Get RSV a real word for word translation. to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. [glow=red,2,300]God who is over all be blessed for ever[/glow]. Amen. Notice a period instead of a comma. Okay then, how about the NASB? That too is a word -for- word translation, and is said by many biblical scholars, both liberal and conservative, to be one of the most literal translations available. 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. Even if the RSV rendering is right (putting a period after Christ), "God" would still be referring to Christ because that is the context of the passage. It is talking about the Messiah. How can YHVH allow something that is not Him to be called King of kings and Lord of lords in the same sense that He holds that title? That title is the absolute highest title anyone can have. There cannot be two King of kings/Lord of lords. Yes, Yeshua is the sent one, but both the sent one and the sender are YHVH. Because no one can look upon the face of God and live! there has to be an intermidiary between God and man. Because it is God breathed. Show me the scripture God breathed about a reward for trinity? Please stop evading the issue. And yes you as much as said there is a secret to the trinity, I added for amusement handshake and passcode. But you have completely evaded answering the charge. A defining scripture from the mouth of God or your god, Jesus! Show me! There isn't one and you know it. My charge is "Put up or shut up!" Shalom |
|
|
|
Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 5, 2009 16:46:20 GMT -5
May I add my own? #3 Yeshua is the sent one in the Hashem of Y H V H to be the vehicle of redemption of all who shema v'shemar. It is abundantly clear that Y H V H has willed to His only begotten son the title of King of King and Lord of Lords, and to those who are co-heirs they are also sons of God and assend to the City of God. Show me one scripture to the reward of believing in a trune God. You can't! IMO case closed. Hmmm...but how could Yeshua be a vehicle of redemption unless He Himself is YHVH. If Yeshua is not YHVH, then you have something that is not YHVH saving humanity. There is no Scripture that gives a "reward" for believing that YHVH is triune. This debate over the nature of Yeshua's deity has been going on since before Nicea. The conclusion that a person draws about Yeshua's deity is not based on reward. Rather, it is based on what Scripture shows. This has nothing to do with what other people have said. It has everything to do with what Scripture itself teaches. It sounds like we both believe that our respective viewpoints are based on Scripture. That is good. That is where we should be looking for doctrine. |
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 16:58:05 GMT -5
Since we cannot agree on the translation of Romans 9:5, what about Titus 2:13? I'll quote it from the NASB, for accuracy. 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, How is this translated in the RSV? Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (two, God and Yeshua Hamoshiach) not two gods, but God and his sent one, his Living Torah/word/firstborn of all creation. Shalom |
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 17:00:23 GMT -5
May I add my own? #3 Yeshua is the sent one in the Hashem of Y H V H to be the vehicle of redemption of all who shema v'shemar. It is abundantly clear that Y H V H has willed to His only begotten son the title of King of King and Lord of Lords, and to those who are co-heirs they are also sons of God and assend to the City of God. Show me one scripture to the reward of believing in a trune God. You can't! IMO case closed. Hmmm...but how could Yeshua be a vehicle of redemption unless He Himself is YHVH. If Yeshua is not YHVH, then you have something that is not YHVH saving humanity. There is no Scripture that gives a "reward" for believing that YHVH is triune. This debate over the nature of Yeshua's deity has been going on since before Nicea. The conclusion that a person draws about Yeshua's deity is not based on reward. Rather, it is based on what Scripture shows. This has nothing to do with what other people have said. It has everything to do with what Scripture itself teaches. It sounds like we both believe that our respective viewpoints are based on Scripture. That is good. That is where we should be looking for doctrine. ["Hmmm...but how could Yeshua be a vehicle of redemption unless He Himself is YHVH. If Yeshua is not YHVH, then you have something that is not YHVH saving humanity."] Why do you ignore books of the bible? Is Ester put in as just a nice story? Remember it doesn't ever mention Y H V H the Holy one blessed is He, apparently you do not derive any message from it. Mordicai communicates in the Name of the King, this is the same role that Yeshua proclaims himself, seems you believe is Jesus, but when he speaks you can't hear him. Mark 13:32 "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. |
|
|
|
Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 5, 2009 17:00:32 GMT -5
Because no one can look upon the face of God and live! there has to be an intermidiary between God and man. Because it is God breathed. Show me the scripture God breathed about a reward for trinity? Please stop evading the issue. Why must there be a reward for belief in the trinity? I don't even know what you mean by a reward. Can you please explain? What I said was that it is impossible for us humans to understand everything about God. The trinity is a mystery because we cannot fully explain it in human language so that it makes sense to our human minds and fully satisfy human logic. The trinity is called a mystery because it is 1.) Talking about God. Humans can never have a full grasp on who God Himself works. 2.) We humans cannot comprehend what it really means for YHVH to be triune because we are merely human. 3.) There is only so much that we can talk about. We know that there is one God, but we also come to the conclusion from Scripture that YHVH is triune. All we can do is present the evidence. At a certain point we have to put up our hands and say, "I don't know. This is just what Scripture teaches." By "mystery" we do not mean a special secret that is kept from everybody else. Rather, we mean that there is a lot about YHVH that we cannot explain, and our human minds cannot understand. From Jesus' mouth: 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy SpiritHe mentioned all three persons right there, and the way that He said it links all three together as one God. |
|
|
|
Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 5, 2009 17:13:42 GMT -5
Since we cannot agree on the translation of Romans 9:5, what about Titus 2:13? I'll quote it from the NASB, for accuracy. 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, How is this translated in the RSV? Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (two, God and Yeshua Hamoshiach) not two gods, but God and his sent one, his Living Torah/word/firstborn of all creation. Shalom So you're saying that there are two that are to appear -- God being one, and Jesus being the other? I suppose that the way that we interpret this verse depends on our own bias. If a person is biased to see two persons in this verse, they will interpret it that way. The same if we are biased to see one person in this verse. The sentence structure, as it is in the RSV would allow for both interpretations. My interpretation of Titus 2:13 does not change, even when read in the RSV. I see it as talking about the appearing of one person (Jesus), and that there are two titles here that are used for Him -- God and Savior. Given the translations for two other verses that to me clearly give Jesus deity... How then does the RSV translate John 1:1? This is what it says in the NASB. 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. |
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 17:19:19 GMT -5
Because no one can look upon the face of God and live! there has to be an intermidiary between God and man. Because it is God breathed. Show me the scripture God breathed about a reward for trinity? Please stop evading the issue. Why must there be a reward for belief in the trinity? I don't even know what you mean by a reward. Can you please explain? What I said was that it is impossible for us humans to understand everything about God. The trinity is a mystery because we cannot fully explain it in human language so that it makes sense to our human minds and fully satisfy human logic. The trinity is called a mystery because it is 1.) Talking about God. Humans can never have a full grasp on who God Himself works. 2.) We humans cannot comprehend what it really means for YHVH to be triune because we are merely human. 3.) There is only so much that we can talk about. We know that there is one God, but we also come to the conclusion from Scripture that YHVH is triune. All we can do is present the evidence. At a certain point we have to put up our hands and say, "I don't know. This is just what Scripture teaches." By "mystery" we do not mean a special secret that is kept from everybody else. Rather, we mean that there is a lot about YHVH that we cannot explain, and our human minds cannot understand. From Jesus' mouth: 18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy SpiritHe mentioned all three persons right there, and the way that He said it links all three together as one God. Check back to an earlier time we have a dispute as to whether this was ever in the original Matthew. The fingerprints of hasatan are on this one. What is the HS's name? PS All of my scriptures have two or three witnesses. Shalom |
|
|
|
Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 5, 2009 17:32:51 GMT -5
Why do you ignore books of the bible? Is Ester put in as just a nice story? Remember it doesn't ever mention Y H V H the Holy one blessed is He, apparently you do not derive any message from it. Mordicai communicates in the Name of the King, this is the same role that Yeshua proclaims himself, seems you believe is Jesus, but when he speaks you can't hear him. Mark 13:32 "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mordicai wasn't the Savior of the world who died on the cross for our sins. There is a difference between what Mordicai did and what Jesus did. But all right, I think I understand your viewpoint better. It still does not work for me, but if that's the way you see it....okay. The only thing is that you will still need to explain a few more verses. As for Mark 13:32, to me this verse does not disprove Jesus' deity. What I see it saying is that Jesus does not know the exact date of the end, but the Father did. There are a couple of things to consider here. Jesus was on earth when He made that comment. Although He still had His deity, He chose not to use some of His attributes sometimes, and chose to at such times limit Himself to only what He would know as a human. It was necessary for Him to do this sometimes, because He too had to trust in the Father so that He truly could be without sin. This verse shows that Jesus is not the Father, so the verse poses a problem for modalists. But, I can see how you would use a verse such as Mark 13:32 to build a case against Yeshua's deity. As I said early in the thread, there is evidence both for and evidence against His deity. The question is which is the stronger argument. That is what everyone reading this thread must decide. |
|
|
|
Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 5, 2009 17:46:26 GMT -5
Check back to an earlier time we have a dispute as to whether this was ever in the original Matthew. The fingerprints of hasatan are on this one. What is the HS's name? PS All of my scriptures have two or three witnesses. Shalom So then, you do not believe that everything in the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit? (You seem to be suggesting that at least Matthew 28 was not of God, and you are actually attributing it to Satan). If this is the case, then it means that people have the freedom to throw away any verse that they do not like. That is exactly what is happening with liberal biblical scholars. Some of them don't like what John or Paul wrote, so they are throwing out all of their writings. (Not all liberal scholars do this, just some). If you think that Matthew 28 was inspired by Satan, what about John 10? 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30" I and the Father are one." and what about Colossians 2:9 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, |
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 17:49:26 GMT -5
Why do you ignore books of the bible? Is Ester put in as just a nice story? Remember it doesn't ever mention Y H V H the Holy one blessed is He, apparently you do not derive any message from it. Mordicai communicates in the Name of the King, this is the same role that Yeshua proclaims himself, seems you believe is Jesus, but when he speaks you can't hear him. Mark 13:32 "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mordicai wasn't the Savior of the world who died on the cross for our sins. There is a difference between what Mordicai did and what Jesus did. But all right, I think I understand your viewpoint better. It still does not work for me, but if that's the way you see it....okay. The only thing is that you will still need to explain a few more verses. As for Mark 13:32, to me this verse does not disprove Jesus' deity. What I see it saying is that Jesus does not know the exact date of the end, but the Father did. There are a couple of things to consider here. Jesus was on earth when He made that comment. Although He still had His deity, He chose not to use some of His attributes sometimes, and chose to at such times limit Himself to only what He would know as a human. It was necessary for Him to do this sometimes, because He too had to trust in the Father so that He truly could be without sin. This verse shows that Jesus is not the Father, so the verse poses a problem for modalists. But, I can see how you would use a verse such as Mark 13:32 to build a case against Yeshua's deity. As I said early in the thread, there is evidence both for and evidence against His deity. The question is which is the stronger argument. That is what everyone reading this thread must decide. Bait and switch! No one here is denying Yeshua is of God or as the word of God or was God as Jn 1:1 If I were to HAVE TO choose between trinity and modalism , would HAVE TO choose modalists. I believe God is one. Yeshua is the only begotten Son of God. Not two gods. The Father and the son are one as we who are of Yeshua are one with them, now there is a multitudal trinity. Again there is no penalty for beliveing as you do, but if you are wrong!? There are plenty of verses that say, WOE to he who--- or some other warning not to do it, teaching trinity and modalism or any other man made dogma. If there is no P'shat scripture on any subject and it is conjecture on anyones part it every man is right in his own eyes. Shalom |
|
