Replacement Doctrines for the trinity

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 5, 2009 17:19:19 GMT -5 pioneer said:

Check back to an earlier time we have a dispute as to whether this was ever in the original Matthew.
The fingerprints of hasatan are on this one.
What is the HS's name?
PS
All of my scriptures have two or three witnesses.

Shalom

The Holy Spirit's name and identity is YHVH. The Father, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit share that name together because they are one God.

But, His specific person is identified as only the Holy Spirit in Scripture. But the very fact that He is called the Holy Spirit is a good indication of who He is. If there is one thing that is repeated throughout Scripture, it is is that YHVH is holy. He is often said to be "holy, holy, holy."

[pioneer]

Apr 5, 2009 17:46:26 GMT -5 Never Looking Back said:

Apr 5, 2009 17:19:19 GMT -5 pioneer said:

Check back to an earlier time we have a dispute as to whether this was ever in the original Matthew.
The fingerprints of hasatan are on this one.
What is the HS's name?
PS
All of my scriptures have two or three witnesses.

Shalom

So then, you do not believe that everything in the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit? (You seem to be suggesting that at least Matthew 28 was not of God, and you are actually attributing it to Satan).

If this is the case, then it means that people have the freedom to throw away any verse that they do not like. That is exactly what is happening with liberal biblical scholars. Some of them don't like what John or Paul wrote, so they are throwing out all of their writings. (Not all liberal scholars do this, just some).

If you think that Matthew 28 was inspired by Satan, what about John 10?

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."

and what about Colossians 2:9

9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Yes I believe the comment by Sha'ul about all scripture, but you are as always extending that verse on to all writings of all of the written words that show up in today's bibles.
Acts 12:4 case in point.
And no, I find fault with sections that are just one witness and that witness defaces Torah. If a witness speaks and a verse in Torah confirms it as truth, I believe it.

Test the spirits. with scripture/Chumach, the only scriptures extant in Sha'ul's comment.

[pioneer]

Apr 5, 2009 17:51:35 GMT -5 Never Looking Back said:

Apr 5, 2009 17:19:19 GMT -5 pioneer said:

Check back to an earlier time we have a dispute as to whether this was ever in the original Matthew.
The fingerprints of hasatan are on this one.
What is the HS's name?
PS
All of my scriptures have two or three witnesses.

Shalom

The Holy Spirit's name and identity is YHVH. The Father, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit share that name together because they are one God.

But, His specific person is identified as only the Holy Spirit in Scripture. But the very fact that He is called the Holy Spirit is a good indication of who He is. If there is one thing that is repeated throughout Scripture, it is is that YHVH is holy. He is often said to be "holy, holy, holy."

I remember a minister saying to his congregation, "Top knot come down. So ladies take down that top knot. It is written."

A spirit has a spirit? Come on now!

Two witnesses.

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 5, 2009 17:49:26 GMT -5 pioneer said:

Bait and switch! No one here is denying Yeshua is of God or as the word of God or was God as Jn 1:1

Wait? Haven't you been denying that Yeshua is YHVH?

If you have not, then I have been misunderstanding you.

If I were to HAVE TO choose between trinity and modalism , would HAVE TO choose modalists.
I believe God is one. Yeshua is the only begotten Son of God.
Not two gods.

I am NOT saying there are two gods. I am NOT saying there are three gods.

I believe in one God, too.

The Father and the son are one as we who are of Yeshua are one with them, now there is a multitudal trinity.

Again there is no penalty for beliveing as you do, but if you are wrong!? There are plenty of verses that say, WOE to he who--- or some other warning not to do it, teaching trinity and modalism or any other man made dogma.
If there is no P'shat scripture on any subject and it is conjecture on anyones part it every man is right in his own eyes.

Shalom

It is clear that we cannot both be right. This means that at least one of us is wrong. It is also possible that we are both wrong.

That is what it means to have faith. It means that you are taking a stand on something, even though you cannot see the answer for sure, and taking the risk of being wrong. There is risk in faith. If there wasn't, it wouldn't really be faith.

I fully realize that everything that I believe could be wrong. If it is, then I shall face the consequences of that when I die. I know that there are serious consequences to believing and teaching the wrong thing. I am so convinced of what I have come to believe that I'm willing to be wrong on this, and truly take a stand.

All Christological beliefs should have their basis in Scripture, and not human argument.

You and I are not going to be able to convince each other with words or arguments. Our beliefs about Yeshua are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. It is He who speaks to us in Scripture and helps us understand. I can make as many arguments as I want to, but they will never be able to convince you of what I believe. The same is true for your arguments from your beliefs.

I have stated what I believe and why I believe it.

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 5, 2009 18:05:23 GMT -5 pioneer said:

A spirit has a spirit? Come on now!

Two witnesses.

that's what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, and that is what other places in the Bible suggest.

[pioneer]

Apr 5, 2009 18:07:07 GMT -5 Never Looking Back said:

Apr 5, 2009 17:49:26 GMT -5 pioneer said:

Bait and switch! No one here is denying Yeshua is of God or as the word of God or was God as Jn 1:1

Wait? Haven't you been denying that Yeshua is YHVH?

If you have not, then I have been misunderstanding you.



I am NOT saying there are two gods. I am NOT saying there are three gods.

I believe in one God, too.

The Father and the son are one as we who are of Yeshua are one with them, now there is a multitudal trinity.

Again there is no penalty for beliveing as you do, but if you are wrong!? There are plenty of verses that say, WOE to he who--- or some other warning not to do it, teaching trinity and modalism or any other man made dogma.
If there is no P'shat scripture on any subject and it is conjecture on anyones part it every man is right in his own eyes.

Shalom

It is clear that we cannot both be right. This means that at least one of us is wrong. It is also possible that we are both wrong.

That is what it means to have faith. It means that you are taking a stand on something, even though you cannot see the answer for sure, and taking the risk of being wrong. There is risk in faith. If there wasn't, it wouldn't really be faith.

I fully realize that everything that I believe could be wrong. If it is, then I shall face the consequences of that when I die. I know that there are serious consequences to believing and teaching the wrong thing. I am so convinced of what I have come to believe that I'm willing to be wrong on this, and truly take a stand.

All Christological beliefs should have their basis in Scripture, and not human argument.

You and I are not going to be able to convince each other with words or arguments. Our beliefs about Yeshua are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. It is He who speaks to us in Scripture and helps us understand. I can make as many arguments as I want to, but they will never be able to convince you of what I believe. The same is true for your arguments from your beliefs.

I have stated what I believe and why I believe it.

WOW! Willing to stake your entry into the Kindom for a dogma?

If it does not align with the whole bible, to me it is dogma and I will never stake my inheritance on something that is not biblical.

Unchanging God, Yeshua the same today, yesterday and forever.
No scripture where Yeshua says I am God, comes close, but close counts only in Horseshoes.
Like the Christian rapture, Jesus make a close encounter to the earth and snatches away the believers.
Yeshua says as the lightning from east to the west so shall the coming of son of man be.
Immidiately after the tribulation , heavenly signs shofar blows and resurrection, then the account of Sha'ul of we who are alive.

Numbers of scripture that agree with all these, noway will I hang on to a manmade idea in lieu of plain scripture.

May Y H V H have mercy on you.

Baruch Hashem

[pioneer]

Apr 5, 2009 18:13:58 GMT -5 Never Looking Back said:

Apr 5, 2009 18:05:23 GMT -5 pioneer said:

A spirit has a spirit? Come on now!

Two witnesses.

that's what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, and that is what other places in the Bible suggest.

It could be argued that Sha'ul is saying the HS is the mind of Yeshua.
In the Hebrew mind the Spirit of God is a visual reckoning of Y H V H power in action. My friend and teacher a "Little Jew" who teaches the bible to Christians likens Y H V H to the Invisible Man, you can't see him without his overcoat on. You may have a feeling he is about but untill it starts to work do you know.

Shalom

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 5, 2009 18:30:29 GMT -5 pioneer said:

WOW! Willing to stake your entry into the Kindom for a dogma?

If it does not align with the whole bible, to me it is dogma and I will never stake my inheritance on something that is not biblical.

Unchanging God, Yeshua the same today, yesterday and forever.
No scripture where Yeshua says I am God, comes close, but close counts only in Horseshoes.
Like the Christian rapture, Jesus make a close encounter to the earth and snatches away the believers.
Yeshua says as the lightning from east to the west so shall the coming of son of man be.
Immidiately after the tribulation , heavenly signs shofar blows and resurrection, then the account of Sha'ul of we who are alive.

Numbers of scripture that agree with all these, noway will I hang on to a manmade idea in lieu of plain scripture.

May Y H V H have mercy on you.

Baruch Hashem

The rapture has nothing to do with whether or not someone believes that YHVH is triune.

I don't really have an opinion of the rapture. I don't really care. I see Scriptures that can be argued both for and against it. What I do know is that if I keep my eyes fixed you Yeshua, then whatever happens, I will get to be with Him. I'm prepared if there is a rapture and I get taken away. I'm also prepared to go through a tribulation period and stand for Him.

But let me say this, those who do believe in the rapture do NOT believe that the rapture = Jesus' second coming. It is a common misconception to believe that the rapture is Jesus' second coming. There are several different ideas of the rapture. The most common that we hear of is the pre-trib idea. This is the belief that there is a rapture, and that rapture occurs before the tribulation. All those who have not placed faith in Yeshua get an opportunity to do so during the tribulation. After the tribulation, Yeshua comes back. It is this that is the Second Coming.

There is also a mid-trib belief and a post-trib belief. In none of these beliefs is the rapture equated with Yeshua's Second Coming.

Dogma does not mean man-made beliefs. Rather, dogma has to do with certain types of doctrine (teachings). All good doctrine should be derived from Scripture. And yes, the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be dogma. It does not have to have a bad connotation to it.

I believe that the concept of YHVH being triune is a biblical concept. This is where you and I disagree.

How can Yeshua be the unchanging God and not be YHVH? Isn't there only one God?


yes, I'm willing to stake everything that I believe on these things:
1. There is only one God, and He is YHVH
2. He is triune -- the Father, Yeshua, and the Ruach HaKodesh are all Him

and other beliefs, such as Yeshua's bodily resurrection and His Second Coming, and the belief that Yeshua died on the cross for my sins (I think that most of these beliefs would also be considered to be "dogma").

[John]

we have GOT to remeber that the punctuation is added by the translators and can change the meaing of the text completely! In cases like this i think that it is useluss to debate over whether the puntuation is correct... just go to another verse to affirm the belief already.

wow, both pioneer and neverlooking back are very well versed in this discussion. i fell- i KNOW that i am lagging behind.

[pioneer]

Dogma, an authoritative and precisely formulated statement of a religious doctrine that is advanced, not for discussion, but for belief.
Yes set in concrete.
No discussion, just believe it it is the law.
Don't throw your facts around my mind is made up! LOL
Is that called open minded or what?
Even though not one of the founders of those who formulated the Dogma was a Hebrew Sage may not have read a line in Hebrew, but what I say is what goes.

Gee thanks Y H V H for bringing me out of that mindset.

Baruch Hashem

[John]

and pioneer,m i do have one question: how do explain Jn 1:1

i was thinking that the greek word translated 'God' is, when viewed through the glasses of the septuagint, a replacement word for Elohim. and many people, angels, and God areall callled Elohim, so this alone could not prove Yeshua's deity...

but you?

[pioneer]

Apr 5, 2009 20:27:30 GMT -5 John said:

and pioneer,m i do have one question: how do explain Jn 1:1

i was thinking that the greek word translated 'God' is, when viewed through the glasses of the septuagint, a replacement word for Elohim. and many people, angels, and God areall callled Elohim, so this alone could not prove Yeshua's deity...

but you?

What ever your father is, you are John.
Yeshua was not Yeshua in the beginning, he was the word, at conception and susequent dilivery did the word become flesh and dwelt among us. the word is the Torah spoken to create the universe, that is what by divine fiat became Yeshua.
The totallity of Yeshua contains the word of God, not the mind of God, which is Y H V H this is why Yeshua could die and did not know the day and the hour of the end of the age, but being the Living Torah he knew what to tell us to look for at that time.

John if you have seen me you have seen my father.
Yeshua is the image of the unseen father.

Shalom

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 5, 2009 20:23:11 GMT -5 John said:

we have GOT to remeber that the punctuation is added by the translators and can change the meaing of the text completely! In cases like this i think that it is useluss to debate over whether the puntuation is correct... just go to another verse to affirm the belief already.

This is true. The punctuation was added by the translators.

Also, all of the translators have a particular bias, just as we have a particular bias when we read what the Bible says and we make an interpretation. Both the translators and those reading the translation can attempt to be as neutral as possible, but they can never get rid of their biases completely.

It sounds like some of those who translated the RSV (and probably the NRSV as well), may have tended to have been a bit more theologically liberal than those who translated the NIV and those who translated the NASB. The NASB was certainly translated by scholars who came from a conservative perspective. There is no arguing against that. However, the fact that the NASB is considered by both liberal and conservative scholars to be one of the most literal, if not the most literal translation available speaks to the quality of the translation itself.

The RSV and the NRSV are also highly respected translations. (Many of the same people who were involved in the translation of the RSV were also involved in the translation of the NRSV).

The NASB, RSV, and NRSV are all highly respected by scholars. The more liberal scholars tend to prefer the RSV or the NRSV. The more conservative scholars tend to prefer the NASB. They are all good, solid translations, though. It is just a matter of preference. This could be because of such things as punctuation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Standard_Bible

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Standard_Version

www.bible-researcher.com/rsv-bibsac.html

www.zianet.com/maxey/Ver6.htm

[John]

okay i have a questino for you pioneer. how do you interpret these verse:

For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

~Colossians 2:9~

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

~John 1:1-4, 14~

"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

~Isaiah 9:6~

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."

~1 Timothy 3:16~

[pioneer]

Apr 12, 2009 12:44:51 GMT -5 John said:

okay i have a questino for you pioneer. how do you interpret these verse:

For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

~Colossians 2:9~

In the image of the unseen God, the son of God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

~John 1:1-4, 14~ [/quote]The word, that came from the mouth of God the Torah, Yeshua when he was born of woman is the word made flesh. the living Torah/word of God.

"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

~Isaiah 9:6~

Thie is a dual meaning verse, Hezakiah then Yeshua, surely we can't imply Hezakiah was also God.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."

~1 Timothy 3:16~

The image of the unseen God, if you have seen Yeshua you have seen the Father.

[John]

so what is the word for 'god' in isaiah 9:6... surely it cannot be YHVH. it would have to be Adonai, or perhaps Elohim.

it is interesting to note that Elohim is always used of those who Judge israel. this is why the judges of judges, the angels, and Yeshua, as well as the elders (which include the sons of Yaakov and the 12 talmidim) are all called elohim.

so if the word was elohim i wuold have no problem with it. but if it waas YHVH then we would solve how Yeshua could be called YHVH, but we would have to rethink the whole meaning of that name.

are there any online tools for this word searching?

[pioneer]

Apr 12, 2009 22:51:34 GMT -5 John said:

so what is the word for 'god' in isaiah 9:6... surely it cannot be YHVH. it would have to be Adonai, or perhaps Elohim.

it is interesting to note that Elohim is always used of those who Judge israel. this is why the judges of judges, the angels, and Yeshua, as well as the elders (which include the sons of Yaakov and the 12 talmidim) are all called elohim.

so if the word was elohim i wuold have no problem with it. but if it waas YHVH then we would solve how Yeshua could be called YHVH, but we would have to rethink the whole meaning of that name.

are there any online tools for this word searching?

I suppose you need to clarify what you mean, I don'r get the gist of your post
Okay in the beginning there was God alone, he opened his mouth and spoke Torah and the universe was. Torah the first creation/Yeshua firstborn of all creation. the word /Torah made everything that was made/Y H V H spoke it and it was.
Until around 2000 years ago there was no Yeshua/salvation, the HS came upon Mariam and she concieved and bore a son/son of God Yeshua /word became Yeshua/salvation to the world.
Dr. Roy Blizzard compares God to water, He being all the water, dip out a dipperful and put into a man we have Yeshua just the same as the Father, water. they were one, but now two, when he goes back to the Father they are one water, the HS when the water does something that needs to be seen, back with Y H V H the water is one. If one writes the HS does things it is God doing thus a [person like happening,] this is the only way man can express God. Yet, God is not two parts or two people, but one Spirit expressed in two ways.
Y H V H sent the word via Moshe, then as Yeshua, Y H V H 's means to an end, salvation to all who call upon his name, God's Hashem, Yeshua redeemer, lamb sacrifice which atones for the sin of mankind(Those who claim it ) paint the blood on the door posts and the death Angel passes over that abode, thus it is saved.
If you can't get a clear pix then give me a clue what you want in the post.

Shalom

[John]

well... i understand your postition a little better. you answered my question from your beliefs... but they are really different from mine. but thanks.

[Never Looking Back]

For more on the Trinity from a Trinitarian perspective...

www.apologeticsindex.org/815-trinity-research-resources

The Trinity is one God who exists simultaneously in three persons. Each is coequal, copowerful, and coeternal with the other. Each person, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is not the other. Without either there is no God; all comprise the one God.
- Source: God as a Trinityoffsite, CARM

vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

I know that one of the most oft-repeated questions I have dealt with is, "How does one explain, or even understand, the doctrine of the Trinity?" Indeed, few topics are made such a football by various groups that, normally, claim to be the "only" real religion, and who prey upon Christians as "convert fodder." Be that as it may, when the Christian is faced with a question regarding the Trinity, how might it best be explained?

For me, I know that simplifying the doctrine to its most basic elements has been very important and very useful. When we reduce the discussion to the three clear Biblical teachings that underlie the Trinity, we can move our discussion from the abstract to the concrete Biblical data, and can help those involved in false religions to recognize which of the Biblical teachings it is denying.

We must first remember that very few have a good idea of what the Trinity is in the first place - hence, accuracy in definition will be very important. The doctrine of the Trinity is simply that there is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

It is necessary here to distinguish between the terms "being" and "person." It would be a contradiction, obviously, to say that there are three beings within one being, or three persons within one person. So what is the difference? We clearly recognize the difference between being and person every day. We recognize what something is, yet we also recognize individuals within a classification. For example, we speak of the "being" of man---human being. A rock has "being"---the being of a rock, as does a cat, a dog, etc. Yet, we also know that there are personal attributes as well. That is, we recognize both "what" and "who" when we talk about a person.

The Bible tells us there are three classifications of personal beings---God, man, and angels. What is personality? The ability to have emotion, will, to express oneself. Rocks cannot speak. Cats cannot think of themselves over against others, and, say, work for the common good of "cat kind." Hence, we are saying that there is one eternal, infinite being of God, shared fully and completely by three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. One what, three who's.

NOTE: We are not saying that the Father is the Son, or the Son the Spirit, or the Spirit the Father. It is very common for people to misunderstand the doctrine as to mean that we are saying Jesus is the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity does not in any way say this!

The three Biblical doctrines that flow directly into the river that is the Trinity are as follows:

1) There is one and only one God, eternal, immutable.

2) There are three eternal Persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These Persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.

3) The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully deity---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

One could possibly represent this as follows:

The three sides of the triangle represent the three Biblical doctrines, as labeled. When one denies any of these three teachings, the other two sides point to the result. Hence, if one denies that there are Three Persons, one is left with the two sides of Full Equality and One God, resulting in the "Oneness" teaching of the United Pentecostal Church and others. If one denies Fully Equality, one is left with Three Persons and One God, resulting in "subordinationism" as seen in Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way International, etc. (though to be perfectly accurate the Witnesses deny all three of the sides in some way---they deny Full Equality (i.e., Jesus is Michael the Archangel), Three Persons (the Holy Spirit is an impersonal, active "force" like electricity) and One God (they say Jesus is "a god"---a lesser divinity than Yahweh; hence they are in reality not monotheists but henotheists). And, if one denies One God, one is left with polytheism, the belief in many gods, as seen clearly in the Mormon Church, the most polytheistic religion I have encountered.

Hopefully these brief thoughts will be of help to you as you "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."


www.carm.org/apologetics/cut-and-paste-information/god-trinity

1. God
1. God is the only Supreme Being in all existence, places, and time. He is Holy (Rev. 4:8), Eternal (Isaiah 57:15), Omnipotent (Jer. 32:17,27), Omnipresent (Psalm 119:7-12), Omniscient (1 John 3:20); etc.
2. He is Love (1 John 4:8,16); Light (1 John 1:5); Spirit (John 4:24); Truth (Psalm 117:2); Creator (Isaiah 40:12,22,26), etc.
3. He is to be worshiped (Gen. 24:26; Exodus 4:31; 2 Chron. 29:28; 1 Cor. 14:25; Rev. 7:11).
4. Christianity is monotheistic - Only one God in existence, anywhere, anytime. See Isaiah Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9 for verses that teach monotheism.
5. One God verses
1. Isaiah 43:10, "You are My witnesses, declares the Lord, And My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."
2. Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me."
3. Isaiah 44:8, "Do not tremble and do not be afraid; have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."
4. Isaiah 45:5, "I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God."
2. Trinity
1. The Trinity is one God who exists simultaneously in three persons. Each is coequal, copowerful, and coeternal with the other. Each person, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is not the other. Without either there is no God; all comprise the one God.
2. Analogy of the Trinity: With time, for example, the past is distinct from the present, which is distinct from the future. Each is simultaneous. Yet, they are not three 'times,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: time
3. Trinitarian Verses
1. Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
2. 1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."
3. 2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
3. Objections to the Trinity answered
1. The Word Trinity is not in the Bible.
1. Just because the word trinity is not in the Bible doesn't mean that the concept is not taught. The word monotheism is not in the Bible, yet the Bible teaches it (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, your criticism is invalid.
2. The Trinity is illogical
1. What law of logic is it that the doctrine of the Trinity violates? If you cannot tell me, then your statement is meaningless. Saying it is illogical does not mean it is.
3. The Trinity is pagan
1. Saying it is pagan means nothing. The question is whether or not it is biblical. Are there verses that show that the F., S., & H.S. are each God, each indwell, each have a will, each loves, etc.? Yes there are.
2. The F., S., & H.S. are each called God (F., Phil. 1:2), (S., John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9), (H.S., Acts 5:3-4). Each has a will (F., Luke 22:42), (S., Luke 22:42), H.S., (1 Cor. 12:11). Each is all knowing (F., 1 John 3:20), (S., John 16:30; 21:17), (H.S., 1 Cor. 2:10-11), etc.
3. Regarding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each has a will (F., Luke 22:42), (S., Luke 22:42), H.S., (1 Cor. 12:11). Each speaks (F., Matt. 3:17), (S., Luke 5:20., (HS., Acts 8:29; 13:2).
4. The Trinity came from pagan trinities.
1. There are no trinities in pagan theology. There are triads (three gods), but no trinities (one God in three persons). Therefore, your statement is inaccurate.
5. The Bible does not say that God is three who's and one what
1. That is correct. But the Trinity is a doctrine arrived at systematically (by looking at the whole of scripture), not by looking at a single verse. Therefore, your complaint is misdirected and shows you don't understand the Trinity.
6. Show me one verse in the Bible that says that God is three persons.
1. The Trinity doctrine is arrived at systematically (by looking at the whole of scripture), not by looking at a single verse. Therefore, you won't see a single verse that says it. Also, this demonstrates that you don't understand the Trinity, otherwise you would not have asked that question.


Here's a video
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4AN2hHk7ws

[pioneer]

All the precepts of man! Not in the bible. Y H V H is echad/one. period.
Add to the bible and reap the consequenses.
Boy, AM I glad Y H V H doesn't ZAP people when they teach stuff like this!