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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 18:20:16 GMT -5
that whole pasted Q and A is a load of crap. they get technical by words.
the point is this: the trinity is a teaching that derived from a mixture of pagan triads and the jewish idea of monotheism. The trinity is a failed attempt to try and combine both of the teachings.
again, things like this along with easter, christmas, and holloween, as well as rosaries and other crap is all a failed attempt of the catholic church as well as hellenized break-offf groups from the way, to combine the pagan religions and the pure religion of YHVH
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 14, 2009 20:31:30 GMT -5
Did you watch Walter Martin's video in which he discusses the Trinity?
If not, you should. It is only about ten minutes long.
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 20:39:45 GMT -5
i will look for it. when i find it i will give you my thoughts on it.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 14, 2009 20:46:55 GMT -5
i will look for it. when i find it i will give you my thoughts on it. I posted the link to it at the bottom of my recent post. |
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 21:15:15 GMT -5
okay- thank you.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 14, 2009 21:25:32 GMT -5
You're welcome  |
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Post by John on Apr 18, 2009 15:06:25 GMT -5
i cannot bleive in the trinity no matter how hard i try (jk.. my point is however, that i am jsut never going to be convinced to believe in the trinity)
if Yeshua IS God, i am not going to bleive in the trinities doctrine's explanaion from it. even historically it is doubted to be an apostalic doctrine.
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 19, 2009 14:30:02 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't believe in it either. It's just something that makes it possible for people to not feel guilty for worshipping Yeshua instesad of God. Put the creator before the creation and get over it, not that hard.
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Post by John on Apr 19, 2009 17:33:49 GMT -5
lol- ha, jeordin you are getting some spiritual UMPH to you. wow. those words hit hard. btw- do you like the new skin?
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Post by pioneer on Apr 19, 2009 18:43:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't believe in it either. It's just something that makes it possible for people to not feel guilty for worshipping Yeshua instesad of God. Put the creator before the creation and get over it, not that hard. There you go jeordin, I love my gift(Yeshua), but I love the giver even more. Amen |
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 19, 2009 18:55:35 GMT -5
I've always felt that way. It's why I believed I wasn't Christian in the first place, but unlike before I actually believe in Jesus now lol.
yeah, the forum looks cool, it was one of those moments where I was like "wait let me check the web address"
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 21, 2009 9:15:02 GMT -5
And what if YHVH and Yeshua are creators both? Not only the One who sends the Word do something is creator, but also the Word, which does the progress.
Remember the statements "Let US create man into our image", "Let US confuse their language so that they can't understand each other"...
Trinity is maybe not necessary, but at least there IS duality. Father and Son. YHVH and Yeshua. Remember that once you come in heaven you WILL bow down to Yeshua also. Remember the John's Revelation - Glory to the sitting on the throne AND to the Lamb!
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Revelation 5:13-14)
Yeshua was the Angel of the Lord in OT who accepted worship - that mean He was God if He accepted worship. Other angels did not accept worship. It was so for example in case of Yochanan.
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
(Revelation 22:8-9)
Interesting! How and why did John tried to worship at the feet of the angel? Wasn't it for his Jewish origin and surroundings? Living in hebrew environment I think he might have considered the angel to be The Angel of the Lord, the Messiah, but the angel let him remember that Yeshua is risen and now don't show Himself as the Angel.
Shalom
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2009 14:24:27 GMT -5
jonotan- you are getting into more of a twinity- which i would gladly accept before the trinity, but i still think that there are problems.
but i do think that yeshua is not an angel. i do not however, think that he is an angel either. he is metatron of 7 letters (the one with six is hanech). he is second ONLY to YHVH. this i think calls for a different classification of creation that only Yeshua can fill.
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 22, 2009 4:58:09 GMT -5
Yeshua is not an angel now, but He might show himself like this in OT. Surely, He was of some heavenly image - we can't say for sure how did He look, whether He looked as an angel. I think for this He concealed Himself that much in OT - and also now - the ones in today's times who were taken out of their flesh in heaven and have seen Yeshua - No image, no face that could be remembered and imitated - only glowing light and glory - Good that Lord did so. Surely He wouldn't want the people to remember his face and shape - cos they would do statues of Him, and then they would worship it. Good how Lord prevents people from idolatry.
Twinity:
It seems ok and quite gives sense. Although tetragramm YHVH is only the name of the father, Yeshua as his only begotten Son is both creator with His Father. They both created this whole world including us. The process of creation is still the same - Father (YHVH) sends His Son - Yeshua (Word of God). Father is the One who gives orders and Son is sent to mission which He always accomplishes successfully. Like King and his son, prince. King sends his son with army to fight battles for kingdom. Yet both the King and the Prince are worthy of same rescpect from their people as one, royal family. And if the prince had his wife, then he grants her the same authority as he does. - that's refering to us - as his ekklesia, wife of Yeshua. I think in heaven we will become the same with Yeshua (as His one flesh) and will be granted even to judge the angels (PLUS, it's even biblical)
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Post by John on Apr 22, 2009 17:39:52 GMT -5
i meant to say in my earlier post that i dont think Yeshua was an angel or YHVH. i accidently put angel instead of YHVH
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 23, 2009 11:15:09 GMT -5
Ok. And I said that YHVH is only the name of the Father. The name of the Son is Yeshua. But Yeshua is also God (for us worthy to be worshipped), co-creator with the Father, although second in command to YHVH. I agree. It is somewhere written that after all is submitted unto feet of Yeshua, He will submit it all to Father so that all may become in all. - some of Shaul's letters.
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Post by John on Apr 23, 2009 16:02:11 GMT -5
there is a new way that i have learned to view Yeshua relationship to YHVH.. i willl have to study it more befoere i can give ou the specifics, but it basically says that there is a heavenly mesiah and an earthly one, just like there is an earthly temple and heavenly temple, earthly ark and heavenly ark, etc. and YHVH acted as the savior of Yisrael in the heavenly realm while Yeshua was the earthly messiah. i cant esplain it totally right now because i am just learning it, but i have to give the theory some aplluase for originality and wisdom
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Post by pioneer on Feb 21, 2011 3:08:33 GMT -5
De 6:4 ¶ "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD;
Mr 12:29 Jesus answered, "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;
Ga 3:20 Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one.
A trinity of witnesses (pardon the pun) saying God Is One. Not 2, not 3, but 1!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by itiswritten on Feb 21, 2011 23:53:43 GMT -5
I agree that the primary focus in the scripture regarding the nature of G-d is that of "oneness", "unity" or echad. However, we see that the word Elohim is a plural word and phrases are used such as "us." We are told that man was made in the image of Elohim. If you get a chance, you might like to listen to my comments on the Shema in parsha "Vaetchanan." I discuss some of these terms and discuss how man is comprised of approximately 50 trillion cells. Of course we also read about the "seven spirits of G-d in the scripture as well.
I think that it is unwise for finite creatures living in a three diminsional universe to think that we can simply divide the Almighty into three parts and think we understand His makeup. I think it is important to be careful not to make hard, fast rules regarding His make up in any way. I think that these things can be very interesting to study and consider, but we we start making rules about what He is or isn't or can or can't be, we should be careful. Again, from the whole of scripture, He shows that He wants us to view Him in His unity/oneness.
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Post by pioneer on Feb 22, 2011 12:58:57 GMT -5
There are myriads of arguments one how God is more than one. I personally am quite satisfied with the STRONG POINT GOD made "Besides me there is no other" God created man, before then there was on other gods, man after the fall, created many images to call god. Like the man created "god of this world" meaning satan, if God had created satan to be god of this world, IMHO, he God would have told us somewhere in Torah he was creating a new god. But, no he does not. Yes there are the plural words and such and the mind of man is going to search for a loophole in the word of God, like you stated we as mortals should not attempt to define God to our liking. Accept the God that created all that is in the universe, as he described himself. No addition nor subtraction. Shalom |
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