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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 15, 2009 15:15:27 GMT -5
In order to remove any stereotypes that a Christian may have about a Messianic, or a Messianic may have about a Christian, I wanted to start this thread in order to clear up misunderstandings between the two groups.
I don't want us to just talk about our differences. I would also like to find out where we have common ground.
Perhaps if we talk with one another we will learn that we actually have more in common than we think.
For instance, some Messianics may think that all Christians deny that Jesus/Yeshua was Jewish. This is simply untrue. Most Christians do fully acknowledge that Jesus was Jewish. In fact, from my entire experience as a Christian, I have never heard anyone in the church deny that He was Jewish.
Some Messianics may believe that all Christians are lawless, and do not follow any law that has ever been given by God. This also is untrue. All the Christians that I know think it is important to follow the Ten Commandments. Also, many Christians that I know think it is wrong to engage in occult activity (divination, fortune telling, witchcraft, mediums, consulting the dead, etc.) Most of the Christians that I know also believe that sexual purity is very important and consider sex outside of marriage to be sin. I could go on. In regard to laws, Christians tend to boil all of the laws down to two commandments -- to love God and to love other people. Therefore, Christians tend to place more of an emphasis on living by the standard of love rather than asking what is lawful/permissible for them to do.
It also seems that some Messianics think that Christians believe that the rapture is the Second Coming of Jesus. This is not true either. Not all Christians believe in the rapture, and not all Christians believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. Of those Christians who do believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, none of them believe that the rapture is Jesus' second coming. The second coming is seen as an entirely different event. There are other views besides the pre-tribulation rapture -- there is also the mid-trib and the post-trib and other views as well.
If anyone has any issues with Christian belief, actions, history, etc. please post it here. I'll give you my take on it, as well as other Christians' takes on it.
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 15, 2009 17:30:01 GMT -5
Yeah some of us Christians have never even heard of a rapture *cough cough* lol
Btw NLB I would love to meet the christians you know lol. All i know id hypocrites who frown down upon girls who have sex before marriage then go around and "have oral" because "it's not as bad" and say very hateful things about other religions when they are supposedly Christians and erghh nvm I can't blame the kids in my school for the false doctrines they are learning and how unimportant religion is in their life at this moment, because it might not always be like that for them. Ha, i always talk my self through stuff
soooooo, horoscopes are occult activity aiy yi yi lol Umm well, I'm no longer very interested
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Post by John on Apr 15, 2009 17:53:40 GMT -5
The problem with christianity from a messianic jewish point of view is broadly these two theologies: replacement theology, and anti-nomotic theology.
Some messianics have a problem with the trinity, and/or the deity of Yeshua.
but all are united with the fact that Yeshua bore our penalty for sin.
YHVHs standard is perfection- yet because no man has acheived this so far, he sent Yeshua to do this. So Yeshua came to earth and was sinless. he did not bear our ACTUAL sin, he just took the penalties for sin, and the curses that were on the law.
It is as if we were in court and i was to be subject to the death penalty, but the innocent person, in this case Yeshua, testifies that he will accept the penalty. This is only accepted by the righteous judge because Yeshua attained his standard of perfection.
So yeshua died and rose again. Now, the specifics of what Yeshua was doing when he was dead is undecided. some say that Yeshua was dead. thats it. like pioneer... however- some say that Yesha descended as a spirit and took the righteous souls out of sh'ol. They also say that he preached to the fallen angels and the righteous souls at the same time. then they resurected with him on his ressurection and ascended with him in the ascention.
Some believe that the captivity captive are the bodies of the righteous souls being held captive by sammael (hasatan) in the ground. They are dead and that is it. no immortal soul or anything. But they believe that because Yeshua took this death penalty for them, they no longer had to suuffer the penalty of death and could be ressurected. The souls that Yeshua preached to were the souls that were not dead when he was dead, but were dead in the time that the apostle wrote his letter. therefore believers of this throy say, the point the apostle was trying to get across is even the patriarchs recieved the gospel program as we had it- the ones who are now dead. and they recieved it from Yeshua himself (metatron, or The Angel of the Lord).
these are VERY complex beliefs that really dont matter in the specifics. but they are some differences in the belif systems that seperate mj with mj and christians with christians... not just christians with messianic jews.
you will find NLB that there will be some messianic sects that will believe exactly as you do except for the beliefs in the antinomotic and replacement theology: these are the core differences.
nomos is the greek word for law, the only word for Torah in ancient greek. So anti-nomotic theology is theology that is against the law, or believes that Yeshua abolished it, contrare towhat mt records as Yeshua own words.
this is all i have time to type so far.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 15, 2009 22:48:57 GMT -5
Yeah some of us Christians have never even heard of a rapture *cough cough* lol Btw NLB I would love to meet the christians you know lol. All i know id hypocrites who frown down upon girls who have sex before marriage then go around and "have oral" because "it's not as bad" and say very hateful things about other religions when they are supposedly Christians and erghh nvm I can't blame the kids in my school for the false doctrines they are learning and how unimportant religion is in their life at this moment, because it might not always be like that for them. Ha, i always talk my self through stuff soooooo, horoscopes are occult activity aiy yi yi lol Umm well, I'm no longer very interested I would say pray for them and give them time. A lot of people are not aware that Christianity is bigger than what they have experienced in their particular churches. As they grow up and meet other people, other Christians, go to Christian events, read their Bibles, and grow in their faith, hopefully they will see what it really means to be a Christian. I did not understand what worship was, nor what real Christianity was until I stepped outside of the church I grew up in and learned what these things were myself. Yes, horoscopes are occultic....the reason? Because it has to do with divination and astrology. When a person trusts in a horoscope, what they are doing is trusting in something besides God, and thus, they fall prey to Satan and are led away from God. Instead of entrusting your future to God and relying on Him, you are relying on the stars and the predictions that astrologers forecast. |
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 11:20:40 GMT -5
did not the magi use astology as well as wise kabbalic men? did not balaam use astrology before he fell?
the problem the bible had with astrology is as NLB said- they were worshipping the creation rather than the creator.
but biblical 'astorlogy' is not bad.... you just have to remember it is YHVH using the planets and such for his signs, as he said in genesis. examples are the alignment of jupiter venus and 'the child' stars to form a VERY bright star that the magi followed. another example would be the retrograde of the sun which caused the sundial to seem to go back words.
but there is less than a 1% chance of you finding a person who practices bbiblical astrology- which isnt really astology at all. the books you see in wall mart are crap and pagan
and you only used them because you were truying to find your place in the world.
but back to the christian thing... i forgot the EXACT number, but almost 50% of christians read there horoscope in the newspapers.
so NLB we are not saying ALL christians are hypocrites but we are showing the majrity of those who represent your religion... which is part of the reason messianic judaism is not called christianity.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 16, 2009 15:09:41 GMT -5
did not the magi use astology as well as wise kabbalic men? did not balaam use astrology before he fell? the problem the bible had with astrology is as NLB said- they were worshipping the creation rather than the creator. but biblical 'astorlogy' is not bad.... you just have to remember it is YHVH using the planets and such for his signs, as he said in genesis. examples are the alignment of jupiter venus and 'the child' stars to form a VERY bright star that the magi followed. another example would be the retrograde of the sun which caused the sundial to seem to go back words. but there is less than a 1% chance of you finding a person who practices bbiblical astrology- which isnt really astology at all. the books you see in wall mart are crap and pagan and you only used them because you were truying to find your place in the world. but back to the christian thing... i forgot the EXACT number, but almost 50% of christians read there horoscope in the newspapers. so NLB we are not saying ALL christians are hypocrites but we are showing the majrity of those who represent your religion... which is part of the reason messianic judaism is not called christianity. there is a difference between astrology and astronomy. Astronomy came out of astrology, but today has nothing to do with astrology. It is simply the study of stars and planets and whatnot. Astrology is the study of the influence that stars and other created things have on people, their personalities, and events. It is condemned numerous times in the Bible. Just because the Magi may have been astrologers does not mean that God condones astrology, or that He approved of what they were doing. Just because something is mentioned in the Bible does not mean that God wants people to engage in that activity. As for what is said of Christianity -- please note several things: 1.) Christianity is the the largest religion that is practiced in North America and Europe. If you go up to the majority of the people who live on these two continents, and ask them what religion they are, most of them would claim to be Christian. 2.) Because of #1, the term "Christian" is used very broadly. Also, people may mean different things when they say that they are Christian. They may say that they are Christian because they might think that being Christian means that they are a good person. They might claim to be Christian because they have been inside a church and know that they have never been inside another religious building/or they were baptized in a Christian church. They may claim to be Christian because we live in a supposed Christian society. Some would claim to be Christian because they follow Christ and because they have accepted Him as their personal Lord and Savior. It is this last group of people that I would consider to be the true Christians. 3.) Because of #1 and #2, there is a wide degree of commitment levels that people have to Christ. It should be expected that with such a wide variation in people's individual beliefs that there is also a large percentage of individuals who are classified as Christian who are into the occult. I would want to know what the sample was that was used for the report. How was the word "Christian" defined? Were these "born again Christians?" Were these "evangelical Christians?" Or was it just everyone who self-identified as Christian who was included in the report? Was it church attendance that was used as the operational definition of Christian? Was it church membership? Was it baptism records? Do not worry, I'm not offended by the comments about Christians being hypocrites. I know that there are many people who do identify as Christian who are hypocrites...just as in Jesus' day there were many Jews who were very religious and yet were hypocrites. Neither the Judaism of Jesus' day or Christianity of modern day should be faulted for this. God Himself does not change. Rather, we are all sinful humans, and we have a tendency towards sin. This is most damaging and harmful when this occurs among those who are supposed to be models. |
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 15:19:00 GMT -5
the christianity that the talmidim of the mashiach taught should be ragarded as a messianic sect of judaism. however, christianity, which means followers of christ, is not teaching the way hamashiach taught.
hamashiach taught the Torah in its unpolluted way. christianity teaches that the law was done away with on the cross.
yeshua taught the true meaning of the sabbath. christianity teaches that we should worship on sunday now.
so i have a problem with christianity as a religion. i have an even BIGGER problem with those who teach christianity and dont live up to its teachings.... they may be false, but to teach and not do is like making and oath and breaking it.
please dont take what i said out of context- it can easily be done.; but if you have questions about what i said, i will clarify.
Judaism is still the religion of YHVH.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 16, 2009 15:53:52 GMT -5
did not the magi use astology as well as wise kabbalic men? did not balaam use astrology before he fell? the problem the bible had with astrology is as NLB said- they were worshipping the creation rather than the creator. but biblical 'astorlogy' is not bad.... you just have to remember it is YHVH using the planets and such for his signs, as he said in genesis. examples are the alignment of jupiter venus and 'the child' stars to form a VERY bright star that the magi followed. another example would be the retrograde of the sun which caused the sundial to seem to go back words. What do you call biblical astrology? I cannot find it anywhere in the Bible. And this touches on one of my criticisms of Messianic Judaism. Please note that I'm not saying that all Messianics engage in occult activity, but of those that I have talked with online, many of them have rejected all things Christian, but not questioned anything that has come from Judaism -- including kabbalic beliefs. In my view of things, kabbalah is still an occult practice. It does not matter to me that it is Jewish occultism, it is still occult. No where in the Bible do I see God encouraging people to engage in ANY form of occult practice. Occult practices are specifically condemned by God. This is my biggest criticism of Messianic Judaism -- the unquestioned acceptance of Kabbalah. I do not find it to be biblical. My intent here is not to offend anyone, but to point out a contradiction that I'm seeing. If you really want to live according to the Law, it seems to me that ALL occult practices must be condemned, including Kabbalah. It seems that although God used balaam in order to bring a blessing to Israel, He disapproved of Balam's divination, and eventually Balam died because of it. In 2 Peter Balam is not spoken very highly of. the christianity that the talmidim of the mashiach taught should be ragarded as a messianic sect of judaism. however, christianity, which means followers of christ, is not teaching the way hamashiach taught. hamashiach taught the Torah in its unpolluted way. christianity teaches that the law was done away with on the cross. yeshua taught the true meaning of the sabbath. christianity teaches that we should worship on sunday now. so i have a problem with christianity as a religion. i have an even BIGGER problem with those who teach christianity and dont live up to its teachings.... they may be false, but to teach and not do is like making and oath and breaking it. please dont take what i said out of context- it can easily be done.; but if you have questions about what i said, i will clarify. Judaism is still the religion of YHVH. As mentioned earlier, no form of Christianity that I know teaches that the entire Law has been done away with. If it did, I would have no problem with astrology or other occult practices. These things are condemned in the Law, and Christians do hold to this. Christians traditionally worship on Sunday because that was the day that Jesus rose from the dead. It is not that we "should worship on Sunday," but rather, out of reverence for Jesus' bodily resurrection, we worship on Sunday. The specific day of the week that people gather together to worship God is not the issue. What is the issue is whether or not people do gather together and worship God. Yes, Jesus taught the true meaning of the Sabbath, and He taught that it is right to do good on the Sabbath. He also said that the Sabbath was created for humans instead of humans being created for the Sabbath. It is supposed to be a time to rest in God and reflect on what He does and to learn about Him....to take a break from the daily mundane life. Of course -- I get angered when I hear about a pastor or priest or clergy person who has sexually abused a child. I'm angered by abusive churches. I'm angered by hypocrites too.... To be honest, I think that both Christianity and Judaism have gone in their own directions, and that both religions have incorporated some false stuff into them. I do not think either is a pure religion. That is why I say that Christianity is about a personal relationship with God, and not religion. And to be fair, I think that both Judaism and Christianity are the religion of YHVH. Judaism no doubt stems from the teachings of the Old Testament. But Christianity stems from Judaism, and specifically stems from the teachings of Jesus. Thus, both religions are founded by God. I do not believe that Christianity was meant to be a separate religion, but rather that it became classified as another religion because the sect was kicked out of Judaism's definition of Judaism. After Christianity split from Judaism, both religions went off on their own separate ways. I believe that there are both Jews and Christians who truly do love God and want to please Him, and who have a personal relationship with Him. This is not due to trying to be religious, but due to belief and surrender to God. Both Judaism and Christianity should be viewed as all about having a personal relationship with God. |
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 16:00:08 GMT -5
kabbalah has been made INTO occult. there is still a non-occult kabballah that is widely taught in jewish synagogues.
biblical astrology IS astronomy, with religious glasses on. i use astrology because that is what astronomy origianlly was. but it had to break off by a different name later because the name astrology was poluted. kindof like mj and christianity
balaam was still aprophet when being used by YHVH, but later went into apostasy. this can be proved scripturally. he used astrology while still a prophet... this is the astrology i spoke of in the paragraph above.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 16, 2009 16:18:37 GMT -5
And this touches on one of my criticisms of Messianic Judaism. Please note that I'm not saying that all Messianics engage in occult activity, but of those that I have talked with online, many of them have rejected all things Christian, but not questioned anything that has come from Judaism -- including kabbalic beliefs. Do you not read and approve of the books written by John? Kabbahlistic, all of them. The "word" is revealed to John. All SOD. Many of Sha'uls teacings and his experience is through SOD. This also a problem with Christianity, it doesn't accept the 'oral Torah', there are many places in the bible that have no explaination unless one looks into the Oral. Receiving of the HS is SOD, spititually decerned. No way is head knowledge! |
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 16, 2009 17:04:16 GMT -5
what's HS and SOD
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Post by pioneer on Apr 16, 2009 17:25:12 GMT -5
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 17:25:55 GMT -5
sod is the mysrtical level of scripture. HS is the holy spirit
this is your own interpretation to why christians do things or what they believe. if you ever speak to christian theologians,etc. or if you read the early church fathers, they are all convinced that the law is abolished. so followers of christianity may not believ it- the leaders do however.
to be fair ? youve got to be kidding me. we are not being fair, we are figuring out the truth. Judaism has been polluted by men, but the original religion was godly. christianity on the other hand, was a readical anti-nomotic and anti-semetic religion from the start. then it was polluted FURTHER by men.
firstly, being a jew doesnt mean that youre a follower of judaism. so there are jewish christians. watch your words.
secondly- there are people who want to please YHVH from every religion. the problem is they want to please THEIR god. Islam wants to please Allah. Christianity wants to praise the YHVH, but they praise also Yeshua and the Holy Spirit as well.
but idolotry is not a sin taken lightly by YHVH. read the nevi'im.
Islam stemmed from Judaism too. Oh my! that means it is a religion of YHVH as well!
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Post by pioneer on Apr 16, 2009 17:35:48 GMT -5
On your soapbox, John?
Pretty good old son! "Charlie Daniels" Devil went down to Georgia.
LOL
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 16, 2009 17:35:57 GMT -5
Actually, professionally, or whatever word I'm looking for, they call Islam, Judaism, and Christianity Abrahamic religions haha  Haha Pioneer, oh, my, my erghh Christianity dissers lol just kidding please don't take it literally |
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 18:00:07 GMT -5
you guys crack me open
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Post by pioneer on Apr 16, 2009 18:31:08 GMT -5
Actually, professionally, or whatever word I'm looking for, they call Islam, Judaism, and Christianity Abrahamic religions haha Haha Pioneer, oh, my, my erghh Christianity dissers lol just kidding please don't take it literally LOL, Literally? How can I take it at all, "erghh Christianity dissers", I am old and I don't understand your teen language, only one.(pos) LOL |
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 18:42:43 GMT -5
sample text:
our lingo is fly. you geysers wouldnt ever catch up to the crackalackin toungue of a teen.
translation:
our language is awesome. old people would never understand the awesome language of teens. (which is not true in my opinion, but it fits the discussion as well as the teenage mindset.)
lol
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 16, 2009 20:05:45 GMT -5
Omygawush HAAAAAAA I had to tell my mother that. Wow haha I'm crying that was so funny plus I'm watching Blazing Saddle!!!!! Dang, to hilarious
Umm, yeah John noooooo
here's a better sample text:
like fer real yo! our slang be fyee on the real boss. I ain no WHAT ya'll ole HEFFERS!!!(not heifers) be talkin bout half the time. I just be like omigeez (in my words omigahh)
Hee I'm hyperventilating that was so fun to type. Omygawush is the really country pronunciation of omygosh
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 20:15:43 GMT -5
lololol yeah i never was a big fan of slang... but we are getting off topic and polluting NLB's thread.
so lets get back ON topic.
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