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Post by pioneer on Apr 16, 2009 20:19:05 GMT -5
Blazing Saddles was old when you were a twinkle in your fathers eye.
LOL
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 16, 2009 20:45:28 GMT -5
yeah pretty funny movie but back on topic like John said
NLB, how did christianity start exactly and do you believe it started off falsely like John thinks. Personally after reading things posted by you, it may have started off untruly but maybe it needs people like us who search for the truth in ways other than through pastors. Ughh I found a verse earlier but I can't remember it i'll modify tomorrow lol
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 16, 2009 20:49:56 GMT -5
And this touches on one of my criticisms of Messianic Judaism. Please note that I'm not saying that all Messianics engage in occult activity, but of those that I have talked with online, many of them have rejected all things Christian, but not questioned anything that has come from Judaism -- including kabbalic beliefs. Do you not read and approve of the books written by John? Kabbahlistic, all of them. The "word" is revealed to John. All SOD. Many of Sha'uls teacings and his experience is through SOD. This also a problem with Christianity, it doesn't accept the 'oral Torah', there are many places in the bible that have no explaination unless one looks into the Oral. Receiving of the HS is SOD, spititually decerned. No way is head knowledge! John does not sound like how Kabbalah is described by Christian apologists. So does Kabbalah, the way you are meaning it, mean anything that is not head knowledge? If that is your definition of it, that is not what I have a problem with, and that is not what I'm calling occult. |
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 21:01:30 GMT -5
thats christian apologists for you!
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 16, 2009 21:04:49 GMT -5
yeah pretty funny movie but back on topic like John said NLB, how did christianity start exactly and do you believe it started off falsely like John thinks. Personally after reading things posted by you, it may have started off untruly but maybe it needs people like us who search for the truth in ways other than through pastors. Ughh I found a verse earlier but I can't remember it i'll modify tomorrow lol I believe that Christianity started with Jesus and with those who first believed in Him. Please note that I'm not saying that Jesus purposely set out to start a new religion. But the origin of Christianity is Jesus. That's what I think the defining thing about Christianity is -- faith in Jesus. It was originally a sect of Judaism, but Rome did not consider it to be the same religion as Judaism. Rome accepted Judaism, but because it considered Christian belief to be a separate religion, it classified it as another religion. Also, the Jews said that it was another religion. Therefore, Judaism and Christianity split. Both Judaism and Christianity went off in different directions from the split. No, I do not think that Christianity started off falsely. After all, it was the apostles that were the ones who spread it. Lots of people came to Christ. The church is not a building. Rather, it is made up of people. We actually consider what happened when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples and empowered them to be able to spread the gospel at Pentecost to be the birth of the church. Christianity is not about denominations or church structure or the Roman Catholic Church, or whatever people tend to associate with Christianity. Yes, the original religion of Judaism was godly -- and there are certainly still Jews who practice it in a godly way. That is incorrect. Christianity is NOT an anti-semetic religion, nor did it start out that way. Yes, there have been Christians throughout history who have been anti-semetic, which is very unfortunate. It is because of these individuals that everyone assumes that an essential feature of Christianity is that it is anti-semetic. But it isn't! Jesus was Jewish, as were most of the writers of the Bible. No where in the Bible does it condone hatred of Jews. In fact, treating Jews with hatred goes against the Bible. Of course. I did not mean to imply that Jews could not be Christian, or that a Jew who has become a Christian is no longer a Jew. As I have mentioned before, I know several Jews that are also Christian. They still consider themselves to be Jews, but they also consider themselves to be Christian. This goes back to whether or not YHVH is triune. Trinitarians claim that when we worship Yeshua and the Holy Spirit, we ARE worshiping YHVH. Therefore we do not consider it to be idolotry. The only people who consider it to be idolotry are those who are not trinitarian. |
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 21:09:49 GMT -5
the point is this: apostles DID NOT spread christianity. the apostles spread messianc judaism.
i said earlier that names do not matter. i was only partially right.
but names do matter in the fact that they define who you are and/or what you believe. words that are tagged onto christianity are 'replacement theology' or 'abolished law' or 'gentile' or 'pork is allowed'.
this type of theology was started be helenized people who broke off of the religion of the apostles - THE WAY. this was a sect of judaism that temporarily died, but is being raisedd again.
christianity broke off of this.
the apostles did not teach the theology of christianity
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Post by pioneer on Apr 16, 2009 21:11:55 GMT -5
Do you not read and approve of the books written by John? Kabbahlistic, all of them. The "word" is revealed to John. All SOD. Many of Sha'uls teacings and his experience is through SOD. This also a problem with Christianity, it doesn't accept the 'oral Torah', there are many places in the bible that have no explaination unless one looks into the Oral. Receiving of the HS is SOD, spititually decerned. No way is head knowledge! John does not sound like how Kabbalah is described by Christian apologists. So does Kabbalah, the way you are meaning it, mean anything that is not head knowledge? If that is your definition of it, that is not what I have a problem with, and that is not what I'm calling occult. How did John discover that Yeshua was the word of God? How did Sha'ul discover how we shall be changed into immortal beings? How did Kefa know that the elements will burn with fervant heat? By what method was Bezalel given the experience to build the Tabernacle and it's accoutriments? Spiritual Oh yes, it is spiritually descerned, just like the Holy Spirit, spiritually descerned, your head can not perceive that is spiritual. And this is why so many people can't wrap their brains around Yeshua being the word of God. If you listen to the HS HE/IT will reveal every word Yeshua/word of God has said. Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. That is Kabbalah, not the phoney stuf palmed off to celebrities, that is of demons and is the occult, condemned by scripture. www.propheticround-up.com/kabbalah101/kabbalah1.htm |
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 21:16:22 GMT -5
the sefirot are of demons?
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Post by pioneer on Apr 16, 2009 21:18:53 GMT -5
the point is this: apostles DID NOT spread christianity. christianity was spread by the messianc jews. Wash your mouth out! Christianity was started by the RCC. Before that it was the Way, this was spread by the appostles and the early leadership. Yeah, there you go. |
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 16, 2009 21:30:26 GMT -5
the point is this: apostles DID NOT spread christianity. christianity was spread by the messianc jews. i said earlier that names do not matter. i was only partially right. but names do matter in the fact that they define who you are and/or what you believe. words that are tagged onto christianity are 'replacement theology' or 'abolished law' or 'gentile' or 'pork is allowed'. this type of theology was started be helenized people who broke off of the religion of the apostles - THE WAY. this was a sect of judaism that temporarily died, but is being raisedd again. christianity broke off of this. the apostles did not teach the theology of christianity That's what I meant when I said that Christianity is not what you are tagging onto the meaning. Those doctrines that you are talking about, though they are within the bounds of Christianity, are NOT essential to the Christian faith. Nor do they define what Christianity is...at least how Christians themselves define it. (those doctrines that are non-essential = replacement theology, abolished law, etc. Christianity has NOTHING to do with food laws. Eating pork is not an essential tennet of the Christian faith, therefore it cannot DEFINE Christianity). Some Christians actually consider replacement theology to be heretical. So please stop referring to replacement theology as if it is a central tenent of the Christian faith. To show you that not all Christians believe in replacement theology, here are several links: www.apologeticsindex.org/r00.html#replaceReplacement Theology Promoters of replacement theology replace Israel with the Church as the object of Biblical prophecy. Taught within the Latter Rain Movement. That Latter Rain Movement is considered to be heretical. apologeticssearch.com/apologetics.html?cx=010571642933333852832%3A19sicgy6nra&cof=FORID%3A11&q=replacement+theology&sa=Search+Apologetics+Websites#1491Okay, then the stuff that is called Kabbalah that the celebrities and other people are going after is what I'm condemning as being occultic. That was what I meant when I said that it was occult. I was not condemning stuff that is spiritually discerned. Thank you for the clarification of definition. In Christianity we don't use the term Kabbalah to refer to spiritually discerned matters. The only meaning to the word Kabbalah that I knew was of the occult stuff. That's why I was condemning it. Christians are not opposed to stuff that is spiritually discerned. It seems on this matter, then, we are agreed. |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 16, 2009 21:39:50 GMT -5
Isn't Christmas, %aster, Sunday worship, replacement days, not moedim?
Doesn't this smack of anything like replacement days?
When one begins to turn from the ways of the Pagan, then he turns back to Y H V H and keeps His Moedim, he is no longer allowed to call himself a True Christian, so says the Christian Apoligists.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 16, 2009 21:56:43 GMT -5
Isn't Christmas, %aster, Sunday worship, replacement days, not moedim? Doesn't this smack of anything like replacement days? When one begins to turn from the ways of the Pagan, then he turns back to Y H V H and keeps His Moedim, he is no longer allowed to call himself a True Christian, so says the Christian Apoligists. Again, Christmas, Easter, and Sunday worship do not define Christianity. A person could not celebrate any of these and still be a Christian. It is not essential for a Christian. But for those Christians who do choose to celebrate these things: Christmas = the celebration of the birth of Jesus. The entire Christmas season, which includes Advent (the four weeks prior to Christmas) -- is not only to make people think of Jesus' birth, but also to get people to anticipate His Second Coming. It's all about Jesus. Santa Claus and whatever is SECULAR Christmas, and has nothing to do with the Christian celebration of Christmas.
Easter = the celebration of Jesus' bodily resurrection. The entire Easter season includes Lent, Holy Week (including Palm Sunday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Easter). The Christian celebration of Easter has nothing to do with Easter Bunny and other stuff. That is secular Easter.
Sunday worship = this is in honor of Jesus' bodily resurrection. Because He rose from the dead on Sunday, Christians traditionally have worshiped on Sunday. Christmas, Easter, and worship on Sunday is Christian tradition. But it does not define what Christianity is. I don't see this as replacing anything. If Christians wanted to worship on Saturday, there are many churches who hold Saturday night services. Worshiping on Sunday is not something that a Christian must do. As for celebrating Jewish holidays, many Christians have actually taken an interest in Jewish holidays. For example, this year the church I've been going to decided to have a Passover on Maundy Thursday, which they designed after a real Jewish one, but with references to Jesus put in. A lot of Christians are wanting to do this. Most of us don't know enough about the other Jewish holidays to celebrate them. I think it would be neat to do so. I say this so you know that rejecting Jewish holidays is not essential to the Christian faith either. |
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 22:35:35 GMT -5
the point is this: apostles DID NOT spread christianity. christianity was spread by the messianc jews.
Before that it was the Way, this was spread by the appostles and the early leadership. yeah i didnt mean to type that- i modified it already NLB: all i am saying is that christians may not believe in these things, but 70% of its leaders do. so that is how i define christianity.and most of the time, stuff like replacement theology and such ARE central to the faith of those christians. just like the deity of Yeshua is one of YOUR version of christianities central doctrines. NLB- you may not believe some of these things, but MOST christian apologists and such do. You- a FOLLOWER- may not know the basic stance of those who call themselves christians. the official christian doctrine DOES support replacement theology and such. look at the people who started christianity (ie, the early church father like origen and such). you must realize that [glow=red,2,300]even during the time of shaul [/glow]his writings were being polluted because he spread them to people who did not understand what he was saying. like romans. Most of romans was written for the jews (in fact many scholars debate whether or not some was written in hebrew now), and you have to be jewish to understand it (on top of that, you probably want to understand 1 cent judaism). gentiles who read romans, or jews who are not familiar with judaism, will not understand the original meaning of shaul. and from these misunderstandings, christianity was foundednow, i will say that christianity started out as a hellenized version of the way, with not that much of a difference. however, the doctrine was very shakey at its begginging and it ended up as supporting the things that mesianic jews oppose.so again, even though you do not believe what mainstreem christianity teaches, that does not mean that christianity teaches it. if you follow the whole law, yet offend ONE point than you are guilty of all (yaakov 2). therfore, EVERY law is important, including the kashrut and such. christians must follow every law that is set in place by YHVH. this was made possible by Yeshua, who puts his Ruach HaKodesh in us and destroys our Yetzer Hara through removing is as the foreskin of our human nature in spiritual circumcision. so if you were truely a child of the light, you would follow the kashrut laws (unless you are dining with gentiles, which it is overruled, so not considered breaking). my point of this is to show that EVERY doctrine can be used to define christianity if it is part of christianity itself. |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 17, 2009 9:58:14 GMT -5
Again, Christmas, Easter, and Sunday worship do not define Christianity. A person could not celebrate any of these and still be a Christian. It is not essential for a Christian. It does where I grew up, to most of the world, but I'll accept that it doesn't define you. If you and other Christians did the Moedim and added your tradition, did them on the right days. I personally would have no problem with you having another holiday, like the Jewish Channikah, Purim and ect. But since they(Christians) dropped all the Moedim like a hot rock and installed their own days and on days to make them seperate from the Moedim, and evidence is that it was done because of anti-semitism, it is problematic for me. Ac 24:14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets, Imitate Sha'ul as he imitates The Messiah and I'll shut up!!!!! |
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 17, 2009 10:58:13 GMT -5
Isn't Christmas, %aster, Sunday worship, replacement days, not moedim? Doesn't this smack of anything like replacement days? When one begins to turn from the ways of the Pagan, then he turns back to Y H V H and keeps His Moedim, he is no longer allowed to call himself a True Christian, so says the Christian Apoligists. Again, Christmas, Easter, and Sunday worship do not define Christianity. A person could not celebrate any of these and still be a Christian. It is not essential for a Christian. But for those Christians who do choose to celebrate these things: Christmas = the celebration of the birth of Jesus. The entire Christmas season, which includes Advent (the four weeks prior to Christmas) -- is not only to make people think of Jesus' birth, but also to get people to anticipate His Second Coming. It's all about Jesus. Santa Claus and whatever is SECULAR Christmas, and has nothing to do with the Christian celebration of Christmas.
Easter = the celebration of Jesus' bodily resurrection. The entire Easter season includes Lent, Holy Week (including Palm Sunday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Easter). The Christian celebration of Easter has nothing to do with Easter Bunny and other stuff. That is secular Easter.
Sunday worship = this is in honor of Jesus' bodily resurrection. Because He rose from the dead on Sunday, Christians traditionally have worshiped on Sunday. Christmas, Easter, and worship on Sunday is Christian tradition. But it does not define what Christianity is. I don't see this as replacing anything. If Christians wanted to worship on Saturday, there are many churches who hold Saturday night services. Worshiping on Sunday is not something that a Christian must do. As for celebrating Jewish holidays, many Christians have actually taken an interest in Jewish holidays. For example, this year the church I've been going to decided to have a Passover on Maundy Thursday, which they designed after a real Jewish one, but with references to Jesus put in. A lot of Christians are wanting to do this. Most of us don't know enough about the other Jewish holidays to celebrate them. I think it would be neat to do so. I say this so you know that rejecting Jewish holidays is not essential to the Christian faith either. I have a question, what's with church services on Wednesday. That's usually when I go because I can't make it on Sunday. Oh and I found the verse I was looking for earlier 1Timothy 5 Now the end of the commandments is charity out of pure heart, and of good conscience, and of faith unfeigned/From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling:/Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they teach, nor whereof they affirm I assumed he is speaking of church teachers, also Pioneer what's with the %aster thing I |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 17, 2009 11:38:16 GMT -5
The name of another god is not to be upon your lips.
I choose to not say the word nor write ir, when inadvertantly say it I slap my face/hard as a reminder not to say it. %aster is derived from the name of another god, therefore is the name of another god.
Wednesday, is a midweek pump up session, commonly called Prayer Meeting.
Not exactly teachers per se, but those who just have a disire to be teachers and not knowing the scriptures nor the law. He wants Timothy to be sure that techers know what they are teaching and not just what they themselves believe. 1 Tim 1-11 Keep the gospel true.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 17, 2009 13:12:37 GMT -5
the sefirot are of demons? Only in your mind; www.jewfaq.org/toc.htmsefirot Kabbalah SOD doesn't change the P'sht meaning of a verse, it brings light to it, just as Yeshua brought light to the scriptures. Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. Joh 1:5 ¶ And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. |
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Post by John on Apr 17, 2009 15:08:03 GMT -5
i didnt think so... i believe in the sefirot teachings-- but the hermetic tradition polluted it with greek thinking.
also pioneer... do you say sunday, monday, teusday, wedneday,etc? Those derive from pagan gods as well-- sunday is dedicated to the sun-god, monday to the moon god, saturday is dedicated to saturn (a roman god).
tuesday is dedicated to the anglo saxon god tiu. wednesday comes from the name wooden, also an anglosaxon god. the same with thursday -thor, and friday- frye
so you are being legalistic with the names things. and a hypocrite.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 17, 2009 16:08:51 GMT -5
i didnt think so... i believe in the sefirot teachings-- but the hermetic tradition polluted it with greek thinking. also pioneer... do you say sunday, monday, teusday, wedneday,etc? Those derive from pagan gods as well-- sunday is dedicated to the sun-god, monday to the moon god, saturday is dedicated to saturn (a roman god). tuesday is dedicated to the anglo saxon god tiu. wednesday comes from the name wooden, also an anglosaxon god. the same with thursday -thor, and friday- frye so you are being legalistic with the names things. and a hypocrite. LOL, John, we live in the world, it is not religion or godly. Oh, yes I would that the world used Gods way, but read what the Messiah said about in this world; Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, " My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world." hen Sha'ul; 9 ¶ I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.Here is where we are til we are transformed, we must deal with worldly things. Pagans wore ties, and it's the uniform of the world. I do not wear one to Sabbath services. No one of the disciples advocated we leave the world, but we were told by Sha'ul not to go to a Pagan temple and eat from the table of a demon. Sarcasticly, I may add. obtw, I almost missed your point, %aster is the only one that is used in a religious service, so this one I choose not to say out loud, So yes I am hypocritical on the days of the week, probably many other things I am not aware of. But again God does not intend for us to leave the world. Remember Y H V H is a just God and every one in the world, satan has made speak the name of another god. |
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Post by John on Apr 17, 2009 16:16:39 GMT -5
but if you have no problem saying the days of the week why do you have a problem saying easter?
nevermind--- i ssee that you edited your post.
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