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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 8, 2009 7:56:35 GMT -5
Let me say, first of all, I do not wish to debate the Trinity here. Rather, I'm looking to find out what the Non-Trinitarian perspective is.
Trinitarians experience YHVH as triune in everything that they do. For example:
Our worship is to YHVH, through YHVH, by YHVH
Our prayer is to YHVH, through YHVH, by YHVH
We are reconciled to YHVH, through YHVH, by YHVH
All things come to YHVH, through YHVH, by YHVH
I could add to this list, but this should give a picture.
But for those who deny the Trinity, you would not view worship, prayer, reconciliation, etc. in this way. So how do you view it?
To add to this, since this week is holy week for both Christians and Jews (yes, the Christian holy week is the same week as Passover this year), then I would be interested in how non-Trinitarians understand Yeshua's death and resurrection.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 8, 2009 8:17:25 GMT -5
This question came about while I was posting the lyrics to the songs in my thread about that. (The people who wrote the songs are all trinitarian in their beliefs).
Since non-Trinitarians do not believe that Yeshua is YHVH, do you believe in the blood atonement/substitutionary atonement? Do you believe that Yeshua's blood is able to cover your sin?
If yes, then you must understand it differently than Trinitarians do.
For trinitarians, YHVH Himself became human in order to save humanity from their sins. The humility that was involved in this is extreme. YHVH became human, and was willing to be treated horribly by humans. He was willing to be mocked, spit upon, beat, tortured, hated, etc. just for us. We are His creation, yet He was willing to suffer with us and for us because of the depths of HIS love.
The Father (who is also YHVH), sent Yeshua (YHVH) and watched it all happen. The pain in allowing Yeshua to go through all of this must have been extreme.
The motive behind Yeshua coming, living, suffering, and then dying was because YHVH loved humanity and knew this was the only way to save us. The bodily resurrection of Yeshua would be that much more victorious -- because of who it was who died and rose again.
And it is this love that demands a response from us in worship.
But if Yeshua is not YHVH, then it changes the meaning of the the events that led up to Yeshua's death on the cross.
How do non-Trinitarians understand this?
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Post by pioneer on Apr 8, 2009 11:37:19 GMT -5
The only thing that changes is your perspective!
God, the Holy God did not come down to earth.
He sent the "word of God" as His only begotten son.
You make god and Yeshua into LIARS. But, what the hey, you are forgiven of past present and future sins, so 'no sweat' I'm on a gravy train with bisquit wheels." Only that that is only in the mind of a triritarian Christian.
I'd like to see NLB send NLB anywhere, if NLB goes it is because NLB descided to go, not because NLB was sent by NLB. Do you see how stupid it is in writing?
Doesn't the Torah tell you Y H V H will send A Messiah? Doesn't the Messiah Yeshua proclaim He is Sent?
On the testamony of two witnesses is a thing established. The two BEST witnesses in the universe, yet you say He sent himself, in face of the written word and the sent one and the sender telling you you are dead wrong.
If there is NO benefit in scripture to a belief af you are convinced of. Why is it so immportant to disrupt the lives and the minds of true believers? I for one can not fanthom why a dogma in which there is No Profit. Why one would be so hell bent on teaching such to any one EXCEPT if NLB is motivated by the enemy!
Another thing, why do Christians think that extreme pain is so nessacary for Jesus' sacrifice to be worthwhile? You guys seem to dwell on that so much. It must have a special secret meanibg to you. Does believing in a trinity anesthasize you when you are persecuted and slowly killed in the end times? Oh! never mind you are in heaven, raptured away in a secret snatching away. While I and all my fellows are here on earth being hated by those who are suffering the wrath of God. The Moshiach warned us that the disciple is not above the master.
We will be sealed against the wrath of God, by the blood of the Lamb but we are not promised a painless encounter with the unbelievers, we may die a painful death, but the promise of resurrection is enough. I have FAITH. Plus He says He will come and His reward is with him. He also says he who us faithful in these small thins will be given big things.
GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN!
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 8, 2009 13:01:10 GMT -5
The only thing that changes is your perspective! God, the Holy God did not come down to earth. He sent the "word of God" as His only begotten son. You make god and Yeshua into LIARS. But, what the hey, you are forgiven of past present and future sins, so 'no sweat' I'm on a gravy train with bisquit wheels." Only that that is only in the mind of a triritarian Christian. I'd like to see NLB send NLB anywhere, if NLB goes it is because NLB descided to go, not because NLB was sent by NLB. Do you see how stupid it is in writing? Doesn't the Torah tell you Y H V H will send A Messiah? Doesn't the Messiah Yeshua proclaim He is Sent? On the testamony of two witnesses is a thing established. The two BEST witnesses in the universe, yet you say He sent himself, in face of the written word and the sent one and the sender telling you you are dead wrong. If there is NO benefit in scripture to a belief af you are convinced of. Why is it so immportant to disrupt the lives and the minds of true believers? I for one can not fanthom why a dogma in which there is No Profit. Why one would be so hell bent on teaching such to any one EXCEPT if NLB is motivated by the enemy! I do NOT believe that Yeshua is the Father. I believe that the Father, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit are three persons. Yeshua is not the Father, Yeshua is not the Holy Spirit. However, all three (the Father, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit) are YHVH. The Father (who is not Yeshua) sent Yeshua, but both the Father and Yeshua are YHVH. Both the sender and the sent one are YHVH. Yeshua is the Messiah, and the Father is not the Messiah. The Father sent Yeshua. We are talking about two persons, yet one God. I'm not denying that Yeshua was sent by the Father. Now you are accusing me of being motivated by Satan because I hold fast to trinitarian belief!!! If Satan were the one behind trinitarian belief, then why is it the main teaching that is denied by every single cult out there? Why is it that demonic spirits have told channelers and mediums that the Trinity is false? Why is it that everyone who practices occult stuff ends up denying the Trinity because their spirit guide told them it was false? If the trinitarian belief was inspired by Satan, don't you think that these practices that are obviously demonic in origin would also promote it? Don't you think that the spirit guides would be telling people to believe in the Trinity instead of to deny it? Without exception, every cult that is out there denies the Trinity. Every occult practice/experience that people have had has led people to deny the Trinity. Worse, you are suggest that because I believe in the Trinity, that I must be inspired by Satan. So are you denying that Jesus was crucified? It is not the pain in and of itself that is the focus. Rather, it is the fact that Jesus endured all of that out of His love for us. When a person thinks about all that Jesus endured for our (human) sake, it causes us to want to respond to that kind of love. It causes us to stand in awe of Him and to be thankful and grateful for what He did. The fact is that Jesus DID go through a horrible death. He was beaten and the pain that He experienced dying on the cross must have been intense. I've heard it is one of the most painful ways a person can die. Is it possible to understand the depth of this love? To realize that He did it all for me and for you? The belief in the Trinity causes this act to be all the more precious because we believe that this is YHVH Himself who endured it for us humans. No, in fact there is evidence that the opposite will actually occur. Those who believe in the trinity will probably be persecuted in the end times. Why? Because those who believe in the trinity will refuse to follow the Anti-Christ or acknowledge that the Anti-Christ is god. Plus, trinitarians would be considered by the rest of the world to be backwards, intolerant, and just plain wrong. In fact, you can see seeds of this now happening in some churches and denominations. Some trinitarians are being persecuted for their beliefs in certain Christian circles. You are making an assumption that I believe in the rapture. I don't. I believe that it is possible that believers could be raptured, and if that is the case, fine. If not, then I'm fully prepared to suffer for my belief in Jesus. While it is true that in the end times, whether there is a rapture or not, there will certainly be suffering for those who do believe in Jesus, there is always suffering for Him. If a person truly believes in Jesus, then they are going to run up against opposition their entire lives. There are always going to be people who will persecute them. There is a cost to following Jesus, and trinitarians are certainly not exempt from that. I never said that believers are promised a painless encounter. I would be denying some things that have happened in my own life if I claimed that the Christian life was supposed to be painless. Earlier in your post you said that Jesus' suffering and pain must have a special meaning for me (I don't know if you meant me specifically or if you were directing it at Christians in general), but maybe part of the reason that it means so much that Jesus suffered and died for me is because I understand what shame is. I understand what it means to be mistreated by others. I have not lived a pain-free life, and my future is not going to be free of pain either. |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 8, 2009 14:00:53 GMT -5
The only thing that changes is your perspective! God, the Holy God did not come down to earth. He sent the "word of God" as His only begotten son. You make god and Yeshua into LIARS. But, what the hey, you are forgiven of past present and future sins, so 'no sweat' I'm on a gravy train with bisquit wheels." Only that that is only in the mind of a triritarian Christian. I'd like to see NLB send NLB anywhere, if NLB goes it is because NLB descided to go, not because NLB was sent by NLB. Do you see how stupid it is in writing? Doesn't the Torah tell you Y H V H will send A Messiah? Doesn't the Messiah Yeshua proclaim He is Sent? On the testamony of two witnesses is a thing established. The two BEST witnesses in the universe, yet you say He sent himself, in face of the written word and the sent one and the sender telling you you are dead wrong. If there is NO benefit in scripture to a belief af you are convinced of. Why is it so immportant to disrupt the lives and the minds of true believers? I for one can not fanthom why a dogma in which there is No Profit. Why one would be so hell bent on teaching such to any one EXCEPT if NLB is motivated by the enemy! I do NOT believe that Yeshua is the Father. I believe that the Father, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit are three persons. Yeshua is not the Father, Yeshua is not the Holy Spirit. However, all three (the Father, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit) are YHVH. The Father (who is not Yeshua) sent Yeshua, but both the Father and Yeshua are YHVH. Both the sender and the sent one are YHVH. Yeshua is the Messiah, and the Father is not the Messiah. The Father sent Yeshua. We are talking about two persons, yet one God. I'm not denying that Yeshua was sent by the Father. Now you are accusing me of being motivated by Satan because I hold fast to trinitarian belief!!! If Satan were the one behind trinitarian belief, then why is it the main teaching that is denied by every single cult out there? Why is it that demonic spirits have told channelers and mediums that the Trinity is false? Why is it that everyone who practices occult stuff ends up denying the Trinity because their spirit guide told them it was false? If the trinitarian belief was inspired by Satan, don't you think that these practices that are obviously demonic in origin would also promote it? Don't you think that the spirit guides would be telling people to believe in the Trinity instead of to deny it? Without exception, every cult that is out there denies the Trinity. Every occult practice/experience that people have had has led people to deny the Trinity. Worse, you are suggest that because I believe in the Trinity, that I must be inspired by Satan. Cults by the Christian deffination, and you are saying the Hebrews are a cult, the Way is a Cult, yet Lawless Chriatians are Not? Go figure. And by all means I am saying that to promote is dogma NOT in scripture, into which there is no PROFIT, is of the devil a grand delussion! If the shoe fit wear it. So are you denying that Jesus was crucified? It is not the pain in and of itself that is the focus. Rather, it is the fact that Jesus endured all of that out of His love for us. When a person thinks about all that Jesus endured for our (human) sake, it causes us to want to respond to that kind of love. It causes us to stand in awe of Him and to be thankful and grateful for what He did. The fact is that Jesus DID go through a horrible death. He was beaten and the pain that He experienced dying on the cross must have been intense. I've heard it is one of the most painful ways a person can die. Is it possible to understand the depth of this love? To realize that He did it all for me and for you? Not in the slightest, it ia scriptual, confirmed by numerous witnesses, so no doubt, I believe it, if it is written and confirmed, absolutely!!!! The fact that there could have been pain, there is not the word in scripture about his pain. No doubt if He were not the son of God, (you are I) may have extreme pain, yet the bible does not elaborate, God may have sedated him, my guess is as good as yours' again words in which are not a part of scripture, are things in which there is no profit. No doubt "For God gave his only begotten son" whether the son suffered we know the humans suffer, but that transferance is not to play on words. The lamb of Exodus died, it's blood was painted on the door post and the Lamb of God's blood is upon ours to get the same results, Baruch Hashen blessed is His HOLY Name, Todah Rabah Lord! He did send the son an Image of God for our salvation. The belief in the Trinity causes this act to be all the more precious because we believe that this is YHVH Himself who endured it for us humans. How quaint! A father never feels the pain of an only begotten son? Your judgement that you intuitiveness is more accute than mine is degrading. Also sleazy!!!! No, in fact there is evidence that the opposite will actually occur. Those who believe in the trinity will probably be persecuted in the end times. Why? Because those who believe in the trinity will refuse to follow the Anti-Christ or acknowledge that the Anti-Christ is god. Plus, trinitarians would be considered by the rest of the world to be backwards, intolerant, and just plain wrong. In fact, you can see seeds of this now happening in some churches and denominations. Some trinitarians are being persecuted for their beliefs in certain Christian circles. You are making an assumption that I believe in the rapture. I don't. I believe that it is possible that believers could be raptured, and if that is the case, fine. If not, then I'm fully prepared to suffer for my belief in Jesus. While it is true that in the end times, whether there is a rapture or not, there will certainly be suffering for those who do believe in Jesus, there is always suffering for Him. If a person truly believes in Jesus, then they are going to run up against opposition their entire lives. There are always going to be people who will persecute them. There is a cost to following Jesus, and trinitarians are certainly not exempt from that. I never said that believers are promised a painless encounter. I would be denying some things that have happened in my own life if I claimed that the Christian life was supposed to be painless. Earlier in your post you said that Jesus' suffering and pain must have a special meaning for me (I don't know if you meant me specifically or if you were directing it at Christians in general), but maybe part of the reason that it means so much that Jesus suffered and died for me is because I understand what shame is. I understand what it means to be mistreated by others. I have not lived a pain-free life, and my future is not going to be free of pain either. You are finally right, I have assumed you concur with Christian beliefs in their entirity, pardon my assumtion, I stand corrected. At least we do agree that there is no escape except the promise of eternal/everlasting life. Amen. |
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Post by John on Apr 8, 2009 14:08:23 GMT -5
The non trinitarians percieve that Yeshua was sent by the father. we are reconciled to YHVH through Yeshua. we are atoned by Yeshua. only Yeshua's blood will YHVH accept.
so we believe everything that trinitarians beleive about Yeshua toning our death, except we think Yeshua's name is YESHUA, not YHVH.
YHVH was a name revealed specifically for YHVH. Yeshua is a name revealed specifically for Yeshua. Sh'kinah is a name speccially revealed for the Ruach HaKodesh.
did i answer your question?
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 8, 2009 14:38:24 GMT -5
The non trinitarians percieve that Yeshua was sent by the father. we are reconciled to YHVH through Yeshua. we are atoned by Yeshua. only Yeshua's blood will YHVH accept. so we believe everything that trinitarians beleive about Yeshua toning our death, except we think Yeshua's name is YESHUA, not YHVH. YHVH was a name revealed specifically for YHVH. Yeshua is a name revealed specifically for Yeshua. Sh'kinah is a name speccially revealed for the Ruach HaKodesh. I want to clarify something just in case there has been a misunderstanding. It seems to me that you are thinking that I believe that YHVH is equivalent to the Father. While Trinitarians do believe that the Father is YHVH, we also believe that Yeshua is YHVH, and the Holy Spirit is YHVH. In other words, we believe that YHVH is God -- the one and only God. However, we do not view YHVH as just the Father. We are not claiming that Yeshua is the Father. Believing that Yeshua is the Father is modalism. Because we do not believe that Yeshua is the Father, we fully acknowledge that He (Yeshua) has the name of Yeshua/Jesus. While we believe that the second person of the Trinity, Jesus, is named Yeshua/Jesus, we also believe that He is YHVH. The Father, we just call the Father. Sometimes when we are referring to Him we do just use the term "God." This does not, however, mean that we do not believe that Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are the same God as the Father is. When referring to the Holy Spirit, we usually just say the Holy Spirit. Because we believe that YHVH is triune, a person could do refer to any of the following as YHVH and be completely correct: YHVH = the whole triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) YHVH = the Father YHVH = Jesus/Yeshua YHVH = the Holy Spirit Let me attempt at giving you a real life example -- let's use the branches of the US Federal government. (Keep in mind that all analogies fall short, they are only meant to help understand a concept, but they can never fully explain it. This is especially true when talking about analogies of the Trinity) There are three branches of the Federal government. These branches are: the Executive branch, the Legislative branch, and the Judicial branch Because all are part of the Federal Government, you could refer to all three as the Federal Government, or you could talk about a specific branch of it, and be correct in both instances. The Federal Government = executive, legislative, judicial The Federal Government = Executive branch The Federal Government = Legislative branch The Federal Government = Judicial branch Three branches, one government I think so. Thank you. |
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 8, 2009 15:19:57 GMT -5
Not in the slightest, it ia scriptual, confirmed by numerous witnesses, so no doubt, I believe it, if it is written and confirmed, absolutely!!!! The fact that there could have been pain, there is not the word in scripture about his pain. No doubt if He were not the son of God, (you are I) may have extreme pain, yet the bible does not elaborate, God may have sedated him, my guess is as good as yours' again words in which are not a part of scripture, are things in which there is no profit. No doubt "For God gave his only begotten son" whether the son suffered we know the humans suffer, but that transferance is not to play on words. The lamb of Exodus died, it's blood was painted on the door post and the Lamb of God's blood is upon ours to get the same results, Baruch Hashen blessed is His HOLY Name, Todah Rabah Lord! He did send the son an Image of God for our salvation. While it is true that Scripture does not specifically say that He was in pain, Psalm 22:14-17 seems to suggest that He experienced pain and suffered while on the cross, both emotionally and physically. When offered sedation, He refused it. The fact, also, that He could not carry His own cross the whole way suggests that He suffered injuries from the beating and flogging. Hebrews 13:12; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 1 Peter 4:1; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:12; Mark 8:31; Mark 9:12; Luke 9:22; Luke 17:25; Luke 22:15; Luke 24:26; Luke 24:46; Acts 3:18; Acts 17:3; Acts 26:23; Hebrews 9:26 suggest He suffered It is always dangerous to make assumptions about what another person believes before you have actually discussed the topic. It's hard for us humans not to make assumptions, but whenever we do make assumptions, we often get into trouble. As for the rapture, while many who bear the Christian name do believe in it, it is by no means a definitive Christian belief. There are some people who would disagree with me on this. I have read several statements of faith that do include it as an essential Christian teaching. They would thus label me a heretic. But many of the Christians that I have talked to actually do not believe in the rapture. I think the rapture became popularized as a Christian belief because of Christian media. Things like the Left Behind series and popular TV preachers teach on it. These things only give a very limited view of what Christians actually believe. To be fair, there are many, many people who use the Christian name and do teach & believe it. My experience has shown that there is also an equal number of Christians who do not believe in it. You may have also been referring to the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel teachers that say that God wants us all to live pain free lives, having prosperity in all areas of their lives. Unfortunately, it is again the Christian media that is mainly responsible for this view of Christianity. These teachers do have a large following. Joel Osteen, Rod Parsley, TD Jakes, Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, and many more are prosperity teachers. The Word of Faith/Prosperity teachers I think are far worse than anyone who teaches the rapture. Word of Faith/Prosperity teachers also have many critics within Christianity. Word of Faith/Prosperity teachings actually stand opposed to true Christian belief. It is truly sad that many today think of these prosperity teachers when they think of Christianity. Joel Osteen has the largest church in the United States.  People are flocking to them, and for many, this is what Christianity has become Yes, we do agree on something  There is no escape except the promise of eternal/everlasting life. |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 8, 2009 16:30:17 GMT -5
While it is true that Scripture does not specifically say that He was in pain, Psalm 22:14-17 seems to suggest that He experienced pain and suffered while on the cross, both emotionally and physically. When offered sedation, He refused it. The fact, also, that He could not carry His own cross the whole way suggests that He suffered injuries from the beating and flogging. It is always dangerous to make assumptions about what another person believes before you have actually discussed the topic. It's hard for us humans not to make assumptions, but whenever we do make assumptions, we often get into trouble. As for the rapture, while many who bear the Christian name do believe in it, it is by no means a definitive Christian belief. There are some people who would disagree with me on this. I have read several statements of faith that do include it as an essential Christian teaching. They would thus label me a heretic. But many of the Christians that I have talked to actually do not believe in the rapture. I think the rapture became popularized as a Christian belief because of Christian media. Things like the Left Behind series and popular TV preachers teach on it. These things only give a very limited view of what Christians actually believe. To be fair, there are many, many people who use the Christian name and do teach & believe it. My experience has shown that there is also an equal number of Christians who do not believe in it. You may have also been referring to the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel teachers that say that God wants us all to live pain free lives, having prosperity in all areas of their lives. Unfortunately, it is again the Christian media that is mainly responsible for this view of Christianity. These teachers do have a large following. Joel Osteen, Rod Parsley, TD Jakes, Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, and many more are prosperity teachers. The Word of Faith/Prosperity teachers I think are far worse than anyone who teaches the rapture. Word of Faith/Prosperity teachers also have many critics within Christianity. Word of Faith/Prosperity teachings actually stand opposed to true Christian belief. It is truly sad that many today think of these prosperity teachers when they think of Christianity. Joel Osteen has the largest church in the United States. People are flocking to them, and for many, this is what Christianity has become Yes, we do agree on something There is no escape except the promise of eternal/everlasting life. Again the simple truth is that Yeshua is the sent one who takes away the sins of believers. There is no reward for believing he is The God Y H V H , therfore there is a strong proability that Yeshua may say to you the exact thing he said to the Saducees, "You are wrong, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God." Being a believer and a commandment keeper/torah observant follower of Yeshua and Sha'ul, I have AT least a square shot at being among the chosen, whereas you on the other hand are not doing the will of God and Yehsua says such a one (saved) shall not enter into the kingdom. Rev. 22:14 Rev. 22:15 Shalom |
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Post by John on Apr 8, 2009 17:46:38 GMT -5
the fact is NLB that Yeshua is not YHVH, he is Yeshua... even if you are trinitarian you think they are distinct figures that make up God.
and again, if you are to interpret this : "My father and i are the same" as meaning Yeshua claiming that he is YHVH, than you have contradicted yourself. he said he was the SAME as the father, not 1/3 of YHVH. if they are the same than together they cannot make up YHVH; they would have to be two deities. So the trinity doctrine itself is faulty on one level, and on the other, it doesnt comply with scripture (in my opinion, but remember that i can be wrong... i am human).
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 8, 2009 19:44:58 GMT -5
the fact is NLB that Yeshua is not YHVH, he is Yeshua... even if you are trinitarian you think they are distinct figures that make up God. and again, if you are to interpret this : "My father and i are the same" as meaning Yeshua claiming that he is YHVH, than you have contradicted yourself. he said he was the SAME as the father, not 1/3 of YHVH. if they are the same than together they cannot make up YHVH; they would have to be two deities. So the trinity doctrine itself is faulty on one level, and on the other, it doesnt comply with scripture (in my opinion, but remember that i can be wrong... i am human). This is difference in belief and interpretation.\ I maintain that there is only one God, but that the Father, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit are all Him. It is clear that we interpret Scripture differently, and that we are not going to agree. |
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Post by John on Apr 8, 2009 22:10:38 GMT -5
no we are not going to agree. not as long as we hold our views. but if we are open to change as long as he proof comes, than maybe we will come to the same point.
if the father is God, and Yeshua is God, etc... than they are 3 gods. If theyare parts that make up a whole, than you are contradicting scripture on your interpretation of verses like "my father and i are the same"
so you lost either way. unless you say they are all the same person just different manifestations of him. than you would open up a whole other can of worms!lol.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 9, 2009 8:18:57 GMT -5
no we are not going to agree. not as long as we hold our views. but if we are open to change as long as he proof comes, than maybe we will come to the same point. if the father is God, and Yeshua is God, etc... than they are 3 gods. If theyare parts that make up a whole, than you are contradicting scripture on your interpretation of verses like "my father and i are the same" There are not three gods because the Father, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit are ONE God, YHVH. This does not make three gods. It makes one God in three persons. I do not believe that Yeshua is a third of YHVH. Rather, I believe that there is one God, and that the Father, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit are all Him. The verse is not "my Father and I are the same." Rather, it is, "I and the Father, we are one." Yeshua is NOT the Father, but both He and the Father are YHVH. There is only one God. I say that they are the same God, but that Yeshua and the Father are different persons (meaning that Yeshua is not the Father.) I believe that they are both YHVH. I do not believe that Yeshua is the Father because Yeshua addressed the Father as another person. He prayed to the Father. Also, He was sent by the Father. I do believe that He is the same God as the Father because there is only one God, and Yeshua identified with the Father, and claimed to be the same God as the Father. There are not three gods because the one God, YHVH, is triune. That is how trinitarians account for the fact there is only one God, yet there are three persons who are Him. Us trinitarians believe Him to be triune, and that it is just how He exists. He's YHVH. Just because it may not make sense to human minds does not mean we have any right to tell YHVH, "You can't exist like that because we can't understand how it is possible." You never answered me when I asked you about the following verses: Isaiah 40:3 3A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God. The authors of the NT viewed this passage as speaking of John the Baptist preparing the way for Yeshua. LORD in all caps in the OT is YHVH. There is no way around this. So, for the NT authors to be referring back to Isaiah 40:3, and using that to speak of Yeshua means that Yeshua HAS to be YHVH. Otherwise it makes no sense to quote Isaiah 40:3 in reference to Yeshua. It is quoted by in the following passages: Matthew 3:3 3For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, "THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!' Mark 1:3 3THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.'" Luke 3:4-6 4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT. 5'EVERY RAVINE WILL BE FILLED, AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND HILL WILL BE BROUGHT LOW; THE CROOKED WILL BECOME STRAIGHT, AND THE ROUGH ROADS SMOOTH; 6AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.'" John 1:23 23He said, "I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,' as Isaiah the prophet said." Also, note Luke 1:76 (this was said of John the Baptist at John's birth) 76"And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; For you will go on BEFORE THE LORD TO PREPARE HIS WAYS; John the Baptist was preparing the way for Yeshua. There is absolutely no way out of this. According to Isaiah 40:3, the one that John the Baptist was preparing people for was Yeshua. Isaiah 40:3 calls this person YHVH. |
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 9, 2009 8:27:10 GMT -5
Again the simple truth is that Yeshua is the sent one who takes away the sins of believers. There is no reward for believing he is The God Y H V H , therfore there is a strong proability that Yeshua may say to you the exact thing he said to the Saducees, "You are wrong, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God." Being a believer and a commandment keeper/torah observant follower of Yeshua and Sha'ul, I have AT least a square shot at being among the chosen, whereas you on the other hand are not doing the will of God and Yehsua says such a one (saved) shall not enter into the kingdom. Rev. 22:14 Rev. 22:15 Shalom I've held off on commenting on this topic because I wanted to focus only on the Trinity. You have attempted to steer the conversation in this direction several times, but I have tried to avoid a debate about it. I still have no wish to debate you on this. All I will say is who are you to judge me? You have no clue of whether or not I'm doing the will of God. If salvation depends on how well I keep the Law, then salvation is no longer by grace through faith and Yeshua's death was for nothing. If not keeping a particular law perfectly keeps a person out of the kingdom, then NONE of us will enter into the kingdom. None of us can keep the Law perfectly, regardless of whether or not a person attempts to follow all the Law. Please understand that I'm not saying that grace is a license to sin. I'm also not saying that believers should live however they please. What I am suggesting, though, is that we are saved by grace through faith, not by how well we keep the Law. That is ALL I'm saying on this topic. |
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
BLUE
Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 9, 2009 10:29:38 GMT -5
Enough!
There are things which NBL is right, also some of them I would like to teach you, NBL, if it is will of God.
I agree also with John and Pioneer with a lot of things mentioned.
And now - Anti-trinitarians:
It is apparent that Lord had not yet pulled out the veil from your eyes. But I pray and know He will soon. You should know that classic Yisrael and Judaism is under veil - and cannot see it at all.
Yeshua and YHVH may be another - and I believe so - another names, they are, however, one ADONAI - mentioned in Shema.
"Shema Yisrael (Hear, 0 Israel): Adonai Eloheinu (the Lord our Gods), Adonai Echad (the Lord is one)."
This Achdut (Oneness) - Interestingly, the word echad in Hebrew can imply a unity in diversity (the word for one and only one, i.e., unique, is more often rendered as yachid). Yachid is the original word which strictly means 'only one' - so it is Lord united!!!
The LORD God, speaking in Genesis 1:26, says "Let us make man in our image and in our likeness" (see also Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8).
And yeah, there are "Creators" in the original language - I reviewed it in Biblia Hebraica - In Ecclesiastes 12:1 it is written, "Remember your Creators in the days of your youth," and in Psalm 149:2 Israel is commanded to rejoice in his Makers. In Genesis 1:1-3, God (Elohim), the Spirit of God (Ruach Elohim), and the Word of God (and God said...), are all involved in the creation of the universe.
It is bad to explain relationship between president and between one under his command. Better explanation is relationship of father and his son. Samewise, they are one family - they are both God. Even if Yeshua is not YHVH, He is Son of YHVH - which makes Him God.
If Yeshua is Metatron, that's perfect explanation - He is 'little YHVH' - SON OF GOD, while not the Father Himself. But they both may be worshipped.
Now - you have ONLY TWO CHOICES - Either your ancestors who worshipped Yeshua as an Angel - Prince of YHVH's hosts (met Joshua), were idolaters, or were worshippers of one true God - ECHAD, no yachid!
Word of God is God!!! And who does not obey the Word = he disobeys God.
Look, most messianics believe it to be truth. Do those, zealously biased against trinity think they are only right? Do they think they are 'the only ones elect' to change mind of other messianics who "are misleaded"? No! They're just blind! And I pray the Lord shall make them know that NOT BY LAW THEY ARE JUSTIFIED, ONLY BY FAITH!!!
17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God;
18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;
19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark,
20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—
21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
24 As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
26 If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?
27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
(Romans 2:17-29)
Now, NBL, and those who don't believe in rapture, go on the thread about rapture and consult it with me if you want. I know it's BIBLICAL! At least at two witnesses! And yeah, if the Lord wants to preserve someone until He comes, without suffering, what is that to you? (John 21:22)
Some people will not have to die, but will be saved and raptured up.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Shalom v'yivrechem ADONAI!
(Shalom, and let Lord bless you!)
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 9, 2009 11:02:42 GMT -5
Now, NBL, and those who don't believe in rapture, go on the thread about rapture and consult it with me if you want. I know it's BIBLICAL! At least at two witnesses! And yeah, if the Lord wants to preserve someone until He comes, without suffering, what is that to you? (John 21:22) Some people will not have to die, but will be saved and raptured up. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" Shalom v'yivrechem ADONAI! (Shalom, and let Lord bless you!) First, yes, there are believers who believe in the rapture. It is within the bounds of the faith. Yes, there are Bible verses that can be used to back it up. While there could be a rapture, this is not an essential doctrine to our faith. There are believers who think there will be a rapture, and there are also believers who think there will not be a rapture. Regardless, the rapture is NOT the Second Coming of Yeshua. If there is a rapture, fine. Then Yeshua will come for all believers. I'm ready to go at any time. If there is not a rapture, I'm prepared to live through the tribulation and stand firm in the truth. It does not really matter to me because Yeshua is my only hope and either way, I will get to be with Him. There are misconceptions with what the rapture is. Some teach that it is the Second Coming, and that is incorrect. Even those who believe in the rapture believe that at the end of the tribulation, Yeshua will return afterwards and do everything that He's prophesied to do in Scripture. There is a false teaching within some Christian circles that says true believers do not have to suffer at all, in any way while on earth. This is the prosperity/word of faith teaching. I think this was what was referring to. Many of these Christians believe in the rapture...so it was to this that I was responding to. As for John 11 - I believe in that. I believe that Yeshua is the resurrection and the life. That phrase has two meanings -- one was the immediate that Yeshua was replying to -- and that has to do with the resurrection of the dead at Yeshua's second coming. He will raise the dead then. But of course He was also referring to the fact that He Is the resurrection and the life, and is also talking about eternal life for those who place faith in Him. Also, it was yet another declaration of His own deity. "I AM the resurrection and the life." -- One of Yeshua's I AM statements. Yeshua = YHVH. |
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 9, 2009 21:31:53 GMT -5
Ummm, guys I'm sorry to interupt yer little debate or whatever, but uhhh, like I said I'm figuring things out and coming to belive all things slowly. I don't see anything as "undone" like our sins becoming forgiven because of the crucifixion. Like at first I did sort of thought Yeshua and his crucifixion was just an excuse for Christians to do "bad things" and pray about it later so they wouldn't feel guilty. I mean I guess tha's what I thought. I haven't thought about any certain thing you know and stuck to a belief about it. Gosh, everyhting is so confusing for me. I really am gonna start over in my beliefs. Just thought i should put a htought of another non-trinantantariananana thingy majigger lol. We're not all the same, well, definitely me.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 9, 2009 22:15:38 GMT -5
Ummm, guys I'm sorry to interupt yer little debate or whatever, but uhhh, like I said I'm figuring things out and coming to belive all things slowly. I don't see anything as "undone" like our sins becoming forgiven because of the crucifixion. Like at first I did sort of thought Yeshua and his crucifixion was just an excuse for Christians to do "bad things" and pray about it later so they wouldn't feel guilty. I mean I guess tha's what I thought. I haven't thought about any certain thing you know and stuck to a belief about it. Gosh, everyhting is so confusing for me. I really am gonna start over in my beliefs. Just thought i should put a htought of another non-trinantantariananana thingy majigger lol. We're not all the same, well, definitely me. I'll start a new thread regarding Yeshua's death and what it means to me. If other people have a different viewpoint, they can fell free to write it. That way it is in its own topic. If you have any specific question that you don't want to ask on in the forum, you can send me a private message, and we can talk. You should definitely pray about it, though. Take as much time as you need. |
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
BLUE
Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 10, 2009 6:05:03 GMT -5
Ummm, guys I'm sorry to interupt yer little debate or whatever, but uhhh, like I said I'm figuring things out and coming to belive all things slowly. I don't see anything as "undone" like our sins becoming forgiven because of the crucifixion. Like at first I did sort of thought Yeshua and his crucifixion was just an excuse for Christians to do "bad things" and pray about it later so they wouldn't feel guilty. I mean I guess tha's what I thought. I haven't thought about any certain thing you know and stuck to a belief about it. Gosh, everyhting is so confusing for me. I really am gonna start over in my beliefs. Just thought i should put a htought of another non-trinantantariananana thingy majigger lol. We're not all the same, well, definitely me. Jeordin, I understand your dissapointment of 'Christians' by name and not in truth. Ah! How harming! For them the people blaspheme the name of the Lord! I won't let any misunderstanding to prevail!!! I won't let false christianity to conceal the true one. On the account you were saying about crucifixion of Yeshua as an excuse for those "Christians" who think they may commit evil - I assure you that anyone doing this way IS NOT TRUE CHRISTIAN. If this was the only Christianity, then maybe I would convert into Judaism rather - you're not alone in this matter. But those who think they may freely misuse the mercy they were given by Yeshua's sacrifice for them, are VERY FOOLISH! They will not be given mercy - they will be JUDGED and VERY HARD! HARDER THAN UNGODLY ONES! Judgement starts from the House of God - from the righteous first. 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”(1.Peter 4:17-18)Do not fear, Jeordin, and do not think that Lord won't provide vengeance and righteous judgement. Everyone who misuses grace of Lord, shall be condemned UNLESS he REPENT, SINCERELY FROM HEART. And if someone is serious, he/she will watch self what he/she is doing, otherwise Lord is ready to deliver anyone who doesn't like Him, under Satan's power. |
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 11, 2009 9:11:09 GMT -5
Jonotan, ohh I just...
I mean that's, idk what to say
ummm some christians really don't know what they are doing they are taught certain things and the meanings aren't explained so they take what they get from it
Oh btw, can you convert to Judaism. When my mom sees me on this site she always says, "Get over it. You weren't born one of them, so you can't be one of them" and that always gets me to thinking. Can I not, I have no Jewish blood whatsoever, everyone is either British European(how I describe it) or black, umm African american. I think I have to say that too.
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People are flocking to them, and for many, this is what Christianity has become 
There is no escape except the promise of eternal/everlasting life.