|
|
Post by John on Mar 31, 2009 19:32:45 GMT -5
Do any of you know of Sha'uls spirit flesh theology? it appears in Romans ALOT.
To my knoweledge, judaism has no hint of this being a doctrine, except maybe kabbalah. Anyone want to clarify that?
And what esactly do you guys think Shaul means when he says that? are the spirit and flesh not in unity?
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 4, 2009 23:18:00 GMT -5
Do any of you know of Sha'uls spirit flesh theology? it appears in Romans ALOT. To my knoweledge, judaism has no hint of this being a doctrine, except maybe kabbalah. Anyone want to clarify that? And what esactly do you guys think Shaul means when he says that? are the spirit and flesh not in unity? Read about the first man Adam and the Last man Adam, the flesh is of the earth and cannot inherit the Kingdom we must be translated into Spirit to inherit the Kingdom. Shalom |
|
|
|
Post by John on Apr 5, 2009 13:21:12 GMT -5
so the flesh is a result of HaAdams sin. He was maltranslated from the body that was immortal when he sinned. and his messianic light that radiated off of him from his innocence disappeared and he saw he was naked. i m guessing that then, the messianic light was vieled by the maltranslated flesh and Sha'ul deducts that the flesh itself is not evil, but a result of evil.
am i right? did you even understand me?
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 15:38:47 GMT -5
so the flesh is a result of HaAdams sin. He was maltranslated from the body that was immortal when he sinned. and his messianic light that radiated off of him from his innocence disappeared and he saw he was naked. i m guessing that then, the messianic light was vieled by the maltranslated flesh and Sha'ul deducts that the flesh itself is not evil, but a result of evil. am i right? did you even understand me? I almost agree, except for the Maltranslated, Messianic light. Adam when he fell he scraped the image of God/defaced the image. We as aresult are the image of the dust. Immortal, no, he did not reach the tree of life and become immortal, this is the promise of our inheritance if we do the "will of God" then we can enter the city by it's gates and partake of the tree of life. We are restored to the image of God by keeping the will of God, the commandments, through many trials of hasatan, if we keep the faith and do his will we will be transformed to be like him/Yeshua. |
|
|
|
Post by John on Apr 5, 2009 16:01:20 GMT -5
so the flesh and spirit are NOT one in unity?
|
|
anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
|
Post by anochria on Apr 20, 2009 23:49:39 GMT -5
The "flesh" that Paul speaks of, as you alluded to, is not to be seen as "the body", as if the body was evil and only an immaterial side of us good in some kind of Greco-Roman/ Gnostic way. Paul isn't abandoning the Jewish belief in the inherent goodness of our physicality. The "sarx" he speaks of is better seen as our sinful nature, which has affected us through and through- deep into our flesh, so to speak. The sarx is pride at it's core, which is a very intangible thing.
I, for one, lean toward understanding humanity primarily as a body-soul-spirit UNITY. This doesn't mean that I believe in soul sleep. I do believe there is consciousness while the dead await their resurrected body. But a bodiless consciousness is not what God intends for us for eternity, of course.
Many Christians have gotten too far into a false flesh-spirit dichotomy, losing the very real celebration and hope of spirit/soul/flesh unity that came to fruition under Judaism.
.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Apr 21, 2009 14:19:40 GMT -5
you answered this for me... flesh is a way of saying 'sinful nature.' not that it is actually flesh but he is giving a spiritual thing a physical name, so that he can better identify it to us who do not understand. this spiritual thing is yetzer hara- the evil inclination. it is the foreskin of our human nature, to be cicumcised off by rthe finger of YHVH- the RHK (HS).
there is more to it than that.
the kabbalists call the act of giving a physical name to a spiritual thing the language of branches. the root is viewed as the spirtual thing that causes the physical to happen.
b/c of adam rishon's first sin, he was changed from the incorruptable to corruptable- i call this maltranslation- and gave the flesh the yetzer hara. it is not a generational curse per se. it was more the fact that through adams sin it became a natural thing. not original sin, but the inclination to sin. this is what is curcumcised, and it is called the 'flesh' because we attained flesh from the immoral body through sin.
again, there is more to this than what isaid, and will be in the thread 'kabbalah.' i have identified the teachings of kabbalh within the writings of the BH rabbis.
more to come
shalom-john
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 21, 2009 15:23:27 GMT -5
RRRIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPP! The sound of pages of the bible being ripped out, a man of God saying it is meaningless!
Sooooorrrrrrryyyy, but the word Of God will forever stand as long as the sun shines and the world is intact!
4 ¶ For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Oh, how I love the precepts of man. I suppose we all go to heaven. AAAARRRGGGGH Away goes the whole book of Ecclesiastes. Ec.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Why in Gods name would any of these verses be included in the bible if they are meaningless?
Another way to say trinity. *gag* wash my mouth out!
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Apr 21, 2009 15:40:03 GMT -5
pioner is speaking of the soul sleep comment- but do not discuss this here... there are other threads devoted to this topic.
|
|
anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
|
Post by anochria on Apr 21, 2009 18:40:33 GMT -5
pioneer... your thread made absolutely no sense to me...
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 21, 2009 19:31:15 GMT -5
pioneer... your thread made absolutely no sense to me... What else is new? Seems to me you have only eyes for Christian dogmas! Isn't sleep in the dust biblical? Is the unified body- soul- spirit? Does the bible suggest that we are aware of death? Yes I am aware of Yeshua's stories. If any thing has two witnesses, NT+ Tanack then post away, otherwise it is the Christian dogma. 4 ¶ For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ec.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. |
|
anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
|
Post by anochria on Apr 22, 2009 0:19:12 GMT -5
I'm trying to decide if it's worth having this discussion with you. You seem rather abrasive. It doesn't add any weight to your arguments to be hostile.
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 22, 2009 10:06:01 GMT -5
Todah rabah; You got that right, I am hostile to worn out dogmas!
If you want to state some biblical truths, I am quite docile.
Shalom
|
|
anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
|
Post by anochria on Apr 23, 2009 18:38:23 GMT -5
Why you brought up the trinity in your response to me I don't know.
Were you insinuating that I was "ripping pages out of the bible and calling them meaningless"?
And why the comment about everyone "going to heaven"?
These remarks were way out of proportion to the flow of the thread so far. If you want to encourage participation on these forums, I'd suggest a gentler approach, you know, "with gentleness and respect".
Is there already a thread on "soul sleep" vs. "post-mortem consciousness"? Or shall I make one?
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 23, 2009 21:53:02 GMT -5
Why you brought up the trinity in your response to me I don't know. Were you insinuating that I was "ripping pages out of the bible and calling them meaningless"? And why the comment about everyone "going to heaven"? These remarks were way out of proportion to the flow of the thread so far. If you want to encourage participation on these forums, I'd suggest a gentler approach, you know, "with gentleness and respect". Is there already a thread on "soul sleep" vs. "post-mortem consciousness"? Or shall I make one? Body-soul-spirit unity, creative triad. If you ever see me going on a Christian Forum trying to teach contrary to the belief system of that Forum, then tell me about it! If I have to wade through a cesspool to get to my house I'm going to be extra loud and vocal toward the perp who dumped that on my front step. I hope a Christian can even understand this. I personally am not searching for truth, I have been touched by God, and the truth is in me. I love you brother, but keep you dirty garbage in your place. I don't have to love your dogmas. One of my favorite verses is Mt 12:43 "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none. Y H V H swept out my mind and I brought in Torah, there was no room left for the Unclean Spirit and his seven cohorts. Don't you know that a little leven, levens the whole lump? All it takes is just one dog ma and you're unclean all over again, need Yeshua to die again for you. So are you here to teach me to be a Christian or are you willing to become a Messianic Grafted in Jew? I will clear a path to all truth, if you are eager to see with new eyes. Shalom |
|
anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
|
Post by anochria on Apr 23, 2009 23:57:40 GMT -5
If you ever see me going on a Christian Forum trying to teach contrary to the belief system of that Forum, then tell me about it!John, Just curious. I was under the impression that this forum is a place for a free exchange of different perspectives on Christianity, as our forum is. I wasn't aware that "the forum" had specific opinions on secondary doctrines. If my input isn't welcome, I will gladly discontinue it. Hmm, that's interesting, because as Sh'aul said, we are to continue to "test all things and hold on to the good". Did I ask you to love my dogmas? And, if we are followers of Yeshua/ Jesus in spirit and truth, then we are both Follwers of the Way/ Christians. I would like to warn you against being so divisive. It's a dangerous place to put yourself in.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Apr 24, 2009 5:49:47 GMT -5
all are welcome to espress their beleifs, but that means pioneer can express his beliefs abou t your dogmas too.
poioneer, calm down.
|
|
anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
|
Post by anochria on Apr 24, 2009 14:50:33 GMT -5
Is there an expectation that people express their beliefs in a respectful and gentle manner?
Just curious.
That is something that we've been pretty careful to guard for on our forums and I think you'd find it helpful to have a policy in place along these lines if you want to encourage people to participate and keep coming back.
The line we use is: We ask that you commit to respectful dialogue that seeks understanding and values both honesty and kindness.
|
|
|
|
Post by pioneer on Apr 24, 2009 17:26:37 GMT -5
If you ever see me going on a Christian Forum trying to teach contrary to the belief system of that Forum, then tell me about it!John, Just curious. I was under the impression that this forum is a place for a free exchange of different perspectives on Christianity, as our forum is. I wasn't aware that "the forum" had specific opinions on secondary doctrines. If my input isn't welcome, I will gladly discontinue it. Hmm, that's interesting, because as Sh'aul said, we are to continue to "test all things and hold on to the good". Did I ask you to love my dogmas? And, if we are followers of Yeshua/ Jesus in spirit and truth, then we are both Follwers of the Way/ Christians. I would like to warn you against being so divisive. It's a dangerous place to put yourself in. Awhole lot of if's in your post. One I'd like to expand, IF you were walking with Yeshua and Sha'ul in truth and in spirit, you would be going to synogogue this eve. and shabbat morn. You would be doing the Moedim, eating kosher and any other Hebrew thing in Tanack. But holy moly, that's Jewish! Remember Yeshua said; Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.2Co 6:14 Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? (Lawlessness/iniqity) Eph 5:8 for once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light Eph 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. Amen |
|
|
|
Post by John on Apr 24, 2009 20:03:20 GMT -5
i only counted 2, lol.
|
|
