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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 19:09:09 GMT -5
i understand that most- if not all-on the forum believe that Torah is still in effect. however, i decided to start this thread in case there is one who DOES believe taht the Torah is abolished.
i also decided to make it to join everyone together on finding scriptures that PROVE this and giving our answers to those verses that seem to contradict the doctrine that Torah is the same.
also, i would like to discuss the immutability of Torah. Can it change, or is it always going to stay the same? if it can, has it and how? if it cant, what is your proof for this statement?
shalom: John
[dont the colors make the posts interesting to read? lol. no really, if it is making it harder to read tell me. i think it captures your attention better, kindof grabs you to look at the thread. but tell me.]
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Post by pioneer on Apr 14, 2009 20:51:30 GMT -5
Oh, my, my, 14 Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross.
How can Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; , be against us?
Yes; Ro 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.
Ro 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Mt 5:18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully,1Ti 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
Soooooo---- not needed anymore, there is none of the above to learn from the law? OOOOOH, I see said the blind man to his two deaf daughters, "I see."
LOL
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 20:55:28 GMT -5
so what is that decree that is against us pioneer? the handwriting in ordinances?
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Post by pioneer on Apr 14, 2009 21:02:38 GMT -5
so what is that decree that is against us pioneer? the handwriting in ordinances? Mt 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; Our Angel that records everthing we say or do, "the handwritings of ordinances that were against us" forgiven, a clean slate, go and sin no more, we have an advocate with the Lord should we stumble and sin again and repent of it. Simple isn't it?
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 21:11:13 GMT -5
wow- i have never heard that before but it makes more sense than any interpretation taht i have heard so far.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 14, 2009 21:24:29 GMT -5
wow- i have never heard that before but it makes more sense than any interpretation taht i have heard so far. There you go! Todah Rabah
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 21:40:39 GMT -5
what?
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Post by pioneer on Apr 14, 2009 22:17:24 GMT -5
Todah rabah/many thanks/thank you very much. Anyway, thank you for the compliment.( it makes more sense than any interpretation taht i have heard so far. ) "what?" I had to LOL.
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 15, 2009 10:15:22 GMT -5
haha that's funny I'm gonna start going "I had to lol" I'm not making fun of you Pioneer just saying it's quite funny to me and your like old,... compared to me. Well, yeah like I said inthe other thread there are some things that were sort of cast out, like rules and traditions as the one in Leviticus 15.
19And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
20 And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean.
21 And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
22 And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
23 And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even.
24 And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.
25 And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean.
26 Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation.
27 And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
28 But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.
29 And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
30 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness. They didn't have the "things" we have today to "protect" I guess against stuff like that, which is why they were seperated.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 15, 2009 13:20:44 GMT -5
LOL.
But jeordin, you need to check it out, the Jews who are practising their faith do this, to a degree. most if not all the cleanliness rules pertained to participating in the Temple service, since there is no Temple many of the rules are therefore not entirely relavant, but not done away with. Mt 5:18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. There will be another Temple someday and you will have to be CLEAN to enter it. Shalom
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Post by John on Apr 15, 2009 14:06:21 GMT -5
ritual laws still need to be observeed, even if there is not a reason for them. the jews call a mittzvot with no apparent reason a chok. there are many chukim, ritual and dietary laws being one of them.
just remember that ritual and dietary laws are ALWAYS ovveruled by moral laws, and some laws overrule other (such as circumcision on the sabbath).... other times, our obligations to the mission feild,i.e. dining with gentiles, overrule things like kashrut
so you still need to follow the purification laws and if you are jewish- even messianic jew- you neeed to mikvah after things like menstruation
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 15, 2009 17:39:04 GMT -5
lol you can mikvah during menstruation lol. sorry I don't understand everything about the mikvah and it seems to me as if you are talking about regular bathing then the whole "certain waters" and all that other stuff I'm still reading on the other tab lol. Oh and I was reading the bible today finding scriptures for a personal ceremony I plan on doing sunday at midnight(which I need to know if not allowed, I'll probably still do it anyways but yeah) and I saw something about the second circumcision i think it was in joshua. Yeah I'm not a doctor, mother, well guy really so how the heck is that possible. Like did they not get it all off the first time! lol i'm serious
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Post by John on Apr 15, 2009 18:01:46 GMT -5
the second circumcision is fleshly circumcision AFTER the heart has been circumcised. spiritual circumcision is when Yesuha removes the foreskin of our nature- the yetzer hara (evil inclination)- as our spiritual molel. It is a symbolic way of saying that when you recieve salvation Yeshua makes it so you have the means of sining no more.
the second cirsumcision is the cirsumcision you recieve AFTER this where your foreskin is removed literally as an out ward sign of the inward circumcision.
Shaul was pointing out that the Yisraelites were circumcised twice according to Torah. he points out this is imposible unless you accept the idea of spiritual circumcision as told by the prophets.
notice that mikvah is known by jews as the female circumsion.
mikvah is a ritual bath- not just the bath you take every night/morning.
and again you are not going to understand every mitzvot that YHVH commands- that is why you just need to follow chok... soon the meaning will come clear. it is clear that the Yisraelites misunderstood some things in Torah that were later revealed by th eapostles.
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 15, 2009 19:31:10 GMT -5
the second circumcision is fleshly circumcision AFTER the heart has been circumcised. spiritual circumcision is when Yesuha removes the foreskin of our nature- the yetzer hara (evil inclination)- as our spiritual molel. It is a symbolic way of saying that when you recieve salvation Yeshua makes it so you have the means of sining no more. the second cirsumcision is the cirsumcision you recieve AFTER this where your foreskin is removed literally as an out ward sign of the inward circumcision. Shaul was pointing out that the Yisraelites were circumcised twice according to Torah. he points out this is imposible unless you accept the idea of spiritual circumcision as told by the prophets. notice that mikvah is known by jews as the female circumsion. mikvah is a ritual bath- not just the bath you take every night/morning. and again you are not going to understand every mitzvot that YHVH commands- that is why you just need to follow chok... soon the meaning will come clear. it is clear that the Yisraelites misunderstood some things in Torah that were later revealed by th eapostles. Okaaaaaaaayyyyy, Clarify a little more on this one. I thought Jewish boys were circumsised on the 8th day, like uhhh after they were born you know because that was the covenant betwixt(sorry I really like that word) God and Israel. Does Yeshua "remove the foreskin of our nature" well, for guys before the 8th day or something therefore giving no reason to be "saved." I'm really confused. or does this apply differently with Messianic Jews or those who aren't born into the religion I really want to knowand I'm also giving you a hard time because I'm not in the happiest of moods right now ;D Sorry about that don't take it personally, well you can if you would like to but yeah
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Post by John on Apr 15, 2009 19:39:49 GMT -5
this is how i think they interpreted 8th day.... yeshua was ressurected on the 8th day, thereford when we are ressurected out of the old man than we are to be circumcised.
if this is not it (if it is not a strictly spiritual interpretation) than what they said was this: circumcision by the jews is okay, but it means nothings until you are spiritually circumcised. and if you are a gentile then dont get circumcised until AFTER you delare your faith in the mashiach... and you are still fulfilling the commandment because you are circumcising yourself AFTER you are spiritually ressurected out of the old man
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 15, 2009 19:43:59 GMT -5
you've looked this up right I'm about to go on hebrew4christians Idk about that, i feel as if you might be wrong about something. *tilt of the head* (elohel those stars sure are fun) how strange!
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Post by John on Apr 15, 2009 21:36:34 GMT -5
why would i be wrong about that? meaning, i know i can be, but what makes you think i am?
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 16, 2009 17:10:04 GMT -5
because isn't the difference between Jews and christians(well one of the main ones besides traditoins and everyhting) oh and excluding Messianic is that they don't believe in Jesus? Why would they really care what day Yeshua was resurrected? don't they do the Bris Mila (sorry I'm not on anyhting elese right now so sorry if that's the wrong name) because it represents the or keeps the covenant between G-d and Israel? I don't know as much as you but, that's what I've gotten so far
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 17:14:38 GMT -5
you do not have to be non-jewish to be a christian. there are christian jews. you do not have to become a gentile. ON TOP OF THAT you do not have to become jewish either. you can stay how you are.
the difference btwn jews and christians depends WHO the christian is, and whether the jew believes in jesus or not.
believing in jesus has nothing to do with ethnicity.
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 16, 2009 17:22:17 GMT -5
wait, what are you talking about i get what you're saying ut where did that come from
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