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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 18:10:47 GMT -5
jthis is where it came from
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 16, 2009 20:13:46 GMT -5
Yeah, but what you were saying was just like huuuhhhh?!! you know
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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 20:18:23 GMT -5
um no it really wasnt. it is a fundamental mj doctrine.
most assume what you did though, so dont feel bad.
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 16, 2009 20:23:32 GMT -5
I don't.
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
BLUE
Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 20, 2009 9:22:22 GMT -5
If someone is Jew by origin, and have accepted Yeshua as his Messiah, let him keep all the precepts of the Torah, including circumcision and so on. If a gentile accepts Yeshua as his/her own Messiah - savior and Lord of his/her life, it is not necessary for such messianic gentile (as I am) to keep all the precepts of Torah. For us, circumcision in hearth is sufficient. If a christian - gentile believer in Yeshua (as I am, and I think also you are, Jeordin) get circumcised in flesh, it won't give him anything. It won't grant him salvation. Yeah, we may get circumcised for some reasons - as Paul circumcised Timothy because of Jews, or if some Jewish woman became my wife, I would not have heart to be left uncircumcised in flesh - for her parents and Jewish relatives. By any means, it would be better in that case. But we, who are taken from gentiles - non-Jewish christians, have become "spiritual Jews", cos we are spiritually circumcised by Yeshua with other all things regarding Torah - we fulfill it spiritually.
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
What have apostles told them?
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Paul says to us:
1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
Maybe the same is with Mikveh in your case.
Shalom
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Post by John on Apr 20, 2009 14:35:28 GMT -5
i disagree- and this is one of the points that i have made known to disagree with most messianics. i think that ALL people are obligated to equally follow ALL of torah simply because torah was given for ALL humanity. the whole of torah for each person. i think that it is part of one larger cov't being progressively revealed and to take one cov't out is to take a part of the grand cov't out nullifying the purpose of the cov'ts in the first place.
i think that gentiles should follow all of torah, not for salvation, but because when they truly accept christ, it becomes nature for them to do the mitzvot. faith w/o works is dead this means that works is the evidence of faith. you can have works without faith, but not faith without works.
and we are to work on each of the 613 mitzvot carefully. one person can be as sinful as lucifer and put money in the temple- it doesnt mean anything. the point of Yeshua is to make the external mitvot an internal experience.
i write more on this in anochrias forum-
shalom-john
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