Maccabees

[Jonatan]

I realised that no one ever here started a thread about that what was in time between the two testaments.
We all know that it's not in canon of protestants, nor Judaism, but at least they are historical books, which provides no harm when read.
Even in your messianic/christian life you can catch some Rhema from it.

I started this thread where I do want to discuss Maccabees cos I consider Maccabees great heroes of faith in history. In Letter to Hebrews, when there's "hall of heroes of faith", i am convinced that even Maccabees belong there.

Everyone who has any clue about Chanukka, Maccabees, hellenistic times in Israel, post here and write something down.

Consider the heroism of Maccabees during their fight against hellenistic invaders, their cleasing of the temple, fighting for the Lord to the very end.
Don't you think we should take example from them?

[itiswritten]

I definitely think there is much to learn regarding what the Maccabees did and the history of that time. Actually first and second Maccabees was originally in the canon of the 1611 King James Bible along with other books. Also the Feast of Dedication which originated during the time of the Maccabees is mentioned in the NT.

I haven't studied a lot of this subject, but have been planning on doing so.

[Jonatan]

I definitely think that 1st and 2nd Maccabees should be restored into cannon once again. I don't know why many are afraid of it so that it is avoided. Protestants may see threat in that because as it is said, Catholicism misused passages from it to form theological views of "Purgatory", or "praying to dead" or something other which is strictly unbiblical.
I don't know what to think about it, but at least Maccabees ARE heroes of faith. Chanukka is biblical also, even Yeshua went on Channuka and considered it not just heretical religious invention of people, but it was from God.
As well as the Maccabees heroes were from God.

ATTENTION FOR PROTESTANTS: DO NOT FEAR BOOKS OF MACCABEES!

Now, a passage from Daniel that I strongly believe was historically about Maccabees, but still will fulfill in future. Now, the future Antichrist king is Antioch IV. Epiphanes - pre-figure, but epochal for Maccabees.
31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.
34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.
35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time... (NIV used)
(Daniel 11:31-35)

See the underlined text. Historically, I would say it was for Maccabees. Those truly that resisted him. And those corrupted were hellenized Jews. It has many pre-figures even for eschatology.
I believe that the way as this intertestamental period was clearly period before 1st coming of Messiah, it must be also whole pre-figurative period of the time before 2nd coming of Messiah.
What do you think?

[itiswritten]

I think that the canon that we have is probably the correct one. For the longest time in Judaism, there were 22 books in the Canon. Many of the books in the Tanach that are now separate were once together in those original 22 groupings. They did not originally include the Apocrypha. However I think that there is much to glean from the information in books such as the Maccabees.

Yes, I think that the Daniel passage that you quoted initially spoke of Antiochus Apiphanes and the time of the Maccabees. However, in Matthew 24 the questions asked by the disciples had to do with number one, the destruction of the temple. He went on to mention the "abomination that makes desolate spoken by Daniel the prophet. I think that this occurred in the time starting at 70 a.d. It is interesting to read about the Roman Emperor Hadrian that reigned later on in light of this as well.

Below is part of an article from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian but the bold font is mine.

Second Roman-Jewish War
See also: Bar Kokhba revolt

In 130, Hadrian visited the ruins of Jerusalem, in Judaea, left after the First Roman-Jewish War of 66–73. He rebuilt the city, renaming it Aelia Capitolina after himself and Jupiter Capitolinus, the chief Roman deity. A new temple dedicated to the worship of Jupiter was built on the ruins of the old Jewish Second Temple, which had been destroyed in 70.[43] In addition, Hadrian abolished circumcision, which was considered by Romans and Greeks as a form of bodily mutilation and hence "barbaric".[44] These anti-Jewish policies of Hadrian triggered in Judaea a massive Jewish uprising, led by Simon bar Kokhba and Akiba ben Joseph. Following the outbreak of the revolt, Hadrian called his general Sextus Julius Severus from Britain, and troops were brought from as far as the Danube. Roman losses were very heavy, and it is believed that an entire legion, the XXII Deiotariana was destroyed.[45] Indeed, Roman losses were so heavy that Hadrian's report to the Roman Senate omitted the customary salutation "I and the legions are well".[46] However, Hadrian's army eventually put down the rebellion in 135, after three years of fighting. According to Cassius Dio, during the war 580,000 Jews were killed, 50 fortified towns and 985 villages razed. The final battle took place in Beitar, a fortified city 10 km. southwest of Jerusalem. The city only fell after a lengthy siege, and Hadrian only allowed the Jews to bury their dead after a period of six days. According to the Babylonian Talmud,[47] after the war Hadrian continued the persecution of Jews. He attempted to root out Judaism, which he saw as the cause of continuous rebellions, prohibited the Torah law, the Hebrew calendar and executed Judaic scholars (see Ten Martyrs). The sacred scroll was ceremonially burned on the Temple Mount. In an attempt to erase the memory of Judaea, he renamed the province Syria Palaestina (after the Philistines), and Jews were forbidden from entering its rededicated capital. When Jewish sources mention Hadrian it is always with the epitaph "may his bones be crushed" (שחיק עצמות or שחיק טמיא, the Aramaic equivalent[48]), an expression never used even with respect to Vespasian or Titus who destroyed the Second Temple.

[Jonatan]

Ok, but not even Hadrian himself could be the Beast, or Antichrist, or that king Daniel says about.
As a pre-figure, ok, Hadrian is also pre-figure of Antichrist. By his acts, he added himself into hall of pre-figures of Antichrist.
Now, we may find many such pre-figures and that lead us to believe that history or eschatology repeats itself. But where is the key difference between pre-figures of Antichrist and his last, final shape?

None of them in history complied to this (read the underlined):

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
(2 Thess. 2:3-8)

None of them stood face-to-face with Yeshua, none of them was defeated by Him, and none of them had been cast to burning lake.
If Hadrian was the final version of the Beast, there's question: did Yeshua returned on earth to destroy him? No. And the reign of the Beast is quite short - 42 months.

[itiswritten]

You may have misunderstood some of my post. However, "antichrist" is never defined in scripture the way that it is in most theology. There is no scripture (that I'm aware of) directly connecting "antichrist" with "the beast" mentioned in Rev 13. The "beast" of Rev 13 is not a man. It is a conglomeration of kingdoms and kings. We are told there were already "many" antichrists at the time of John's writing. The word appears no where in Rev or any other book except John's letters.

antichrist is defined as follows:

• One who denies Y'shua came in the flesh.
  
• One who denies that Y'shua is the Messiah.
  
• One who denies the Father and the Son.
  
• Those who went out from us that we may know that they were not of us.
  

Will there be one man in the future that rules the world? Maybe, but I don't think that there is ample evidence in scripture for acceptance of the idea. A lot of theology has been built on the 2 Thess 2 passage, but by the law of scripture, there must be two or three witnesses to confirm a matter.

[John]

itiswritten:

i have been saying this for quite a while now. I am glad you mentioned it.

-john

[Jonatan]

What problem do you have with it? It isn't directly mentioned in Bible, but does it matter? Because of this, we must have theological systems, our theology that links one thing to another. There's also not said that serpent (from Moses's staff) would mean Yeshua. No one in Bible, none of apostles, nor Apostle Paul gave such a remez. It is maybe recent biblical discovery, isn't it?

If you think the Beast is only conglomeration of kingdoms and kings, do you think Yeshua will come only to put an end to some "conglomeration of kingdoms and kings"?
(There's one book I know, it's quite okay, about end of times named "What will happen to this world" by Joachim Langhammer, where he describes how the Beast is both some "alliance of kingdoms" and a person alike - you know, these symbols are multi-level)

And what about THE WICKED ONE in 2. Thess 2(Son of Destruction), who - as is written - SHALL MAKE SIT HIMSELF IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD? Who that would be? And is it not written that Yeshua will destroy him by His coming? i hope you won't allegorize such clear matter that it is written on PERSON, i hope you won't say that it's kingdom. If there's in Bible that he is person then HE IS PERSON!
Classic Fundamental Theology. And biblical - literal is truly.

[itiswritten]

Jan 18, 2010 7:50:53 GMT -5 Jonatan said:

What problem do you have with it? It isn't directly mentioned in Bible, but does it matter? Because of this, we must have theological systems, our theology that links one thing to another. There's also not said that serpent (from Moses's staff) would mean Yeshua. No one in Bible, none of apostles, nor Apostle Paul gave such a remez. It is maybe recent biblical discovery, isn't it?

I think that there is a big difference. I am making interpretations based directly on the symbolism and interpretations that are given in scripture.

John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


Clearly in the above verse John, one of the writers of scripture quotes Y'shua who interprets the serpent being lifted up on a staff or pole as pointing to the Messiah. Therefore Y'shua himself is identifying the symbolism as pointing to him.

Psalm 110:1-4 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.


I think that the passage above is clearly speaking of Messiah. Part of the verse is quoted in Hebrews and that writer believes that it is referring to him. In the above passage, it refers to YHVH sending "the rod."

Consider also these:

Isaiah 11:1-4

1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Zechariah 3:8
Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zechariah 6:12
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

I believe that there are other passages that I could show as well, but it is clear that I am not the one who first interpreted a serpent or rod as representing the Messiah.

If you think the Beast is only conglomeration of kingdoms and kings, do you think Yeshua will come only to put an end to some "conglomeration of kingdoms and kings"?

I'm basing my interpretation upon the interpretation of the symbols given in Revelation as shown below.

Revelation 17:9-16
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

(There's one book I know, it's quite okay, about end of times named "What will happen to this world" by Joachim Langhammer, where he describes how the Beast is both some "alliance of kingdoms" and a person alike - you know, these symbols are multi-level)

If he quotes two or three witnesses from scripture that prove the beast is a man, I'd like to see it.

And what about THE WICKED ONE in 2. Thess 2(Son of Destruction), who - as is written - SHALL MAKE SIT HIMSELF IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD? Who that would be? And is it not written that Yeshua will destroy him by His coming? i hope you won't allegorize such clear matter that it is written on PERSON, i hope you won't say that it's kingdom. If there's in Bible that he is person then HE IS PERSON!
Classic Fundamental Theology. And biblical - literal is truly.

The scripture has already allegorized much of these symbols. Several times in the NT. The scripture says that "you are the temple." Also the term "wicked one" is used in the places below.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

In the verse below we are told that the young men who are being written to have overcome "the wicked one." How could they if he hasn't come yet?

1 John 2:13
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The point that I was trying to make in the last post is that there is no direct connections that justify exchanging the term antichrist for beast. Also, as I have stated, the description given of the beast is not that of a man, but of kingdoms and kings. I am open to looking at evidence, but I have never seen anyone bring forth two or three witnesses to confirm this theology. Food for thought.

[itiswritten]

Jan 17, 2010 21:15:45 GMT -5 John said:

itiswritten:

i have been saying this for quite a while now. I am glad you mentioned it.

-john

Thanks John. I know what I said really goes against the grain of current Christian theology, but so many terms are used now in a way very different from the way they were defined in the scripture. It's really amazing when you consider a lot of theological terms that are either completely absent from scripture of have been completely redefined. When someone says the word "antichrist" now, if is a completely different picture and description from the way way it is actually described in the scripture. It's the same with "communion." When uses that term now, people immediately think of a ceremony. However, the word is never used in the scripture to define a ceremony, but merely means fellowship. So many words such as hell, sin, faith etc mean something different now in the ears of people than the way in which they are used in the scripture.

[Jonatan]

Ok, now you have just stated that you do believe what scripture says literally. And if scripture itself allegorize something, okay then.
So you do believe that the man of sin, or the wicked one or what do we call him is what have you stated before. And it's not allegory - spiritual beings are not allegorical, they are real - all angels, including Satan.

It would be no problem,
consider my theological scheme:
...the wicked one that catcheth away which was sown (Matt.13:19)
...the tares are the children of the wicked one (Matt.13:38)
...because ye have overcome the wicked one (1 John 2:13+14)
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother.(1 John 3:12)
...in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2)
...And this is of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1 John 4:3)
They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.(1 John 4:5)
...And then the lawless one will be revealed... (2 Thess. 2:8)
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18)

One thing must be sure - it can't be Satan himself. Why? Firstly, Satan won't be destroyed immediately with coming of Yeshua, as is mentioned in 2 Thess. 2:8. You know this must be another spiritual entity, although submitted to will of HaSatan, but not Satan himself.
Secondly, Satan has't been yet thrown down from heaven into earth - Rev.12 is future.
Thirdly, Satan will be thrown to lake of fire 1000 years after throwing the Beast and the false prophet.
You know that there's evil triumvirate of Dragon(HaSatan), the Beast(the Prime Beast) and the false prophet(second Beast) - in Revelation, which all go into lake of fire, before any man.
That's why it is said that Antichrist should exist and be Son of HaSatan in the same fashion as Yeshua is Son of YHVH.
Do you think there is some difference between the wicked one and the lawless one? Not at all. I would say it's the same. I would say that ANTICHRIST, NOT SATAN DIRECTLY is THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD, figuring as prince of darkness, using Satan's delegated authority, being "his son".

This is what has been leading me to think in levels of apocrypha, Enoch and so on... there could be additional clues in same way as there are computer games, for which there are also expansions, datadisks.

You know that it is possible - and I admit it is horrible for us to hear it, but it is the harsh truth - that it's possible - sexual relation between fallen angels (and thus even Satan) and human women, as it was in pre-Noachide era. If book of Enoch mentions something, it could be possible that Satan has sired a son (possibly Azzazyel), who was bound to underworld, but spiritually has authority to rule this world, who will show himself (be unbound) at the end of times as "Messiah" - of course, false.
This is the first scenario.

The second would look this way: Antichrist (as a spirit) yet exists and is in the world (Scripture says so), but of course, only in heavenly areas together with other fallen angels. In the eschatological times, it will be like days of Noach as Lord says in Matt.24 - there will be such lawlessness that Satan will find a woman to give birth to that Antichrist being who figures yet only as a fallen angel. That way, he will be incarnated in similar way as Yeshua was incarnated (of course there's a huge difference, cos God didn't have sex with Mariam, Satan will probably have, if also other fallen angels in pre-noachide era had).

But to understand this and to be open for it, we must not be like protestant saducee theologians, who deny spiritual realm.

[itiswritten]

Jan 20, 2010 8:58:40 GMT -5 Jonatan said:

Ok, now you have just stated that you do believe what scripture says literally.

I don't think that I ever stated that. I do believe the scriptures are true. However, I think that often people take certain things literally that are not intended as such. The context must be considered as well as the weight of evidence from the volume of the scriptures.

And if scripture itself allegorize something, okay then.
So you do believe that the man of sin, or the wicked one or what do we call him is what have you stated before. And it's not allegory - spiritual beings are not allegorical, they are real - all angels, including Satan.

I do believe these things are real, but they may not always appear physically.

It would be no problem,
consider my theological scheme:
...the wicked one that catcheth away which was sown (Matt.13:19)
...the tares are the children of the wicked one (Matt.13:38)
...because ye have overcome the wicked one (1 John 2:13+14)
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother.(1 John 3:12)
...in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2)
...And this is of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1 John 4:3)
They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.(1 John 4:5)
...And then the lawless one will be revealed... (2 Thess. 2:8)
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18)

One thing must be sure - it can't be Satan himself. Why? Firstly, Satan won't be destroyed immediately with coming of Yeshua, as is mentioned in 2 Thess. 2:8.

What is going to be destroyed at Y'shua's coming? Could it be that the "mystery of iniquity" is what is being destroyed? The indication overall from scripture is that "antichrist" is a spirit. We are told that it was already around in the world when John was writing.

You know this must be another spiritual entity, although submitted to will of HaSatan, but not Satan himself.

That could be.

Secondly, Satan has't been yet thrown down from heaven into earth - Rev.12 is future.

How do you know that it is future? Consider this scripture:

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Also, At least the beginning of Revelation 12 reflects what was occurring in the skies at the birth of Y'shua. Check this site out:

www.bethlehemstar.net/dance/dance.htm

Thirdly, Satan will be thrown to lake of fire 1000 years after throwing the Beast and the false prophet.

Yes, but what scripture tells you that the term "antichrist" means "the beast?"

You know that there's evil triumvirate of Dragon(HaSatan), the Beast(the Prime Beast) and the false prophet(second Beast) - in Revelation, which all go into lake of fire, before any man.
That's why it is said that Antichrist should exist and be Son of HaSatan in the same fashion as Yeshua is Son of YHVH.
Do you think there is some difference between the wicked one and the lawless one? Not at all. I would say it's the same. I would say that ANTICHRIST, NOT SATAN DIRECTLY is THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD, figuring as prince of darkness, using Satan's delegated authority, being "his son".

This is what has been leading me to think in levels of apocrypha, Enoch and so on... there could be additional clues in same way as there are computer games, for which there are also expansions, datadisks.

You know that it is possible - and I admit it is horrible for us to hear it, but it is the harsh truth - that it's possible - sexual relation between fallen angels (and thus even Satan) and human women, as it was in pre-Noachide era. If book of Enoch mentions something, it could be possible that Satan has sired a son (possibly Azzazyel), who was bound to underworld, but spiritually has authority to rule this world, who will show himself (be unbound) at the end of times as "Messiah" - of course, false.
This is the first scenario.

The second would look this way: Antichrist (as a spirit) yet exists and is in the world (Scripture says so), but of course, only in heavenly areas together with other fallen angels. In the eschatological times, it will be like days of Noach as Lord says in Matt.24 - there will be such lawlessness that Satan will find a woman to give birth to that Antichrist being who figures yet only as a fallen angel. That way, he will be incarnated in similar way as Yeshua was incarnated (of course there's a huge difference, cos God didn't have sex with Mariam, Satan will probably have, if also other fallen angels in pre-noachide era had).

But to understand this and to be open for it, we must not be like protestant saducee theologians, who deny spiritual realm.

I am hardly denying the spiritual realm. What I am doing is questioning certain theological ideas that can't be backed up by scripture. I imagine few if any, would have linked the term "antichrist" and "beast" if not for religious programing. We are told to "test (prove) all things."

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Also we are told to let every word be confirmed out of the mouth of two or three witnesses. In addition, we are told to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Herod.

Leaven is something that has been added to the bread (Word). Many terms (leaven) have been added to the scriptures that are not there. Also, the meaning of the way many terms in the scripture have changed into something else entirely. I have found that much of the religious teachings that I inherited were wrong and not based in scripture. Therefore I began to test (prove) prominent theological beliefs to see if they could be substantiated by the scriptures or not. If beliefs can't stand up to testing, I tend to be disinclined to accept them.

[John]

Thanks John. I know what I said really goes against the grain of current Christian theology, but so many terms are used now in a way very different from the way they were defined in the scripture. It's really amazing when you consider a lot of theological terms that are either completely absent from scripture of have been completely redefined. When someone says the word "antichrist" now, if is a completely different picture and description from the way way it is actually described in the scripture. It's the same with "communion." When uses that term now, people immediately think of a ceremony. However, the word is never used in the scripture to define a ceremony, but merely means fellowship. So many words such as hell, sin, faith etc mean something different now in the ears of people than the way in which they are used in the scripture.

i agree- and it is these differences in understanding that cause confusion with scripture. they are cultural and linguistic barriers.

-john

[Jonatan]

How do you know that it is future? Consider this scripture:

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Also, At least the beginning of Revelation 12 reflects what was occurring in the skies at the birth of Y'shua. Check this site out:

www.bethlehemstar.net/dance/dance.htm

I knew you would post this verse, Luke 10:18, and you're not alone who post this verse to support theory of thinking that Rev.12 has occured.
But... ...there is huge difference between two things: what word is missing in Luke 10:18? the missing word is "EARTH" !!! Satan wasn't thrown on EARTH in Luke 10:18 while in Rev.12:9, we read:

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So my theory about this is more correct than those who think Satan has been already physically thrown to the earth. And I believe it's not only my theory. Of course, this world is in his hands since Adam's fall, but it doesn't necessary mean that he resides here yet. That time will come, as we read in Revelation 12, where Satan WILL BE thrown to earth even with all his fallen angels.
Satan and fallen angels are in original εν τοις επουρανιοις en tois epouraniois (in places above sky, heavenly areas, but maybe not in that heaven where YHVH sits on the throne with Yeshua, also inhabited by angels) now. Do you agree that the eschatologic spiritual situation is the same now as was in time of first apostles? We live in the same Aion of Grace, time of gospel preaching for all nations, and none of the eschatological ends has occured from that time until now.
If you do, then Apostle Paul wrote this concerning spiritual warfare:

Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[or another translation: rulers of this darkness.] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

If they were in times of Paul, they are there today until Revelation 12:9 and the rest take place.

And it follows...
Rev.12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

Now, it isn't the time when woe to inhabitants (that would mean us). Why woe to us? We are not subject to God's wrath to unleash his wrath to those who are His righteous people.
Woe to inhabitants - those who live not according to His word. There occurs change of Aion - Aion of judgement. And "rejoice O heavens, and you who dwell in them!" in the verse point to those who have been taken at that time in rapture to heaven.
Woe to inhabitants are not today's people - believers and lawless together - there will come some parting.
As far as Revelation is chronological, Revelation 13 absolutely follows chapter 12. This is what everyone must agree on. In Rev.13 you read about all the triumvirate - there's the Dragon, Satan who is being thrown into EARTH in that time, angels are not mentioned here, but from Rev.12 we know they will also be here. And then - the Beast who is given authority by Dragon, and then the second beast that points to the Prime Beast to be worshipped. Don't you see this similar as the Father God has given authority to Yeshua that everyone shall bow to Him(Phillipans 2:9-10), and Ruach is the one who points on Yeshua?

What is going to be destroyed at Y'shua's coming? Could it be that the "mystery of iniquity" is what is being destroyed? The indication overall from scripture is that "antichrist" is a spirit. We are told that it was already around in the world when John was writing.

"What" is going to be destroyed...? You should ask "who" and not "what". No, "Mystery of iniquity" it couldn't be. Scripture doesn't give such fundament for it. It gives fundament for person. Read carefully:

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
(2 Thess. 2:7-8)

We can't allegorize persons into abstract principles. By the way, it sounds very paganic and atheistic as well as people doesn't believe in God - person, literally, but believe in "something", saying "that something" could be God. Allegoric interpretation, when it isn't needed, is the worst cancer and heresy from Origen, Augustin and their fellows, that has been sown.
Today I have read one article named "Chronicle of future" about replacement theology and theory of "allegoric and figurative interpretation" and how it has begun. From Origen, Augustin and even Luther... ...LOL powered by 2! Thank Lord that amillenialism is seen as foolish for sober people and that true eschatological belief as first christians/messianics had, has been restored by fundamental evangelical and charismatic theologians.
Bitter is that now we can see the consequences of allegorization not only in Catholic church, but even in protestant denominations.
But I have retained my infinite faith in His Word, that when He says something in Bible, He is able to do it literally. May all people say that I am naive, but let them be warned that if they do so, in that cause they are unbelievers(as Thomas was) and I am true believer.
Why do we seek shelter in allegoric interpretation when it isn't needed? Because we do not believe it could happen, even if it doesn't contradict Word? Did we become so materialistic?

[itiswritten]

Jan 25, 2010 10:51:02 GMT -5 Jonatan said:

How do you know that it is future? Consider this scripture:

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Also, At least the beginning of Revelation 12 reflects what was occurring in the skies at the birth of Y'shua. Check this site out:

www.bethlehemstar.net/dance/dance.htm

I knew you would post this verse, Luke 10:18, and you're not alone who post this verse to support theory of thinking that Rev.12 has occured.
But... ...there is huge difference between two things: what word is missing in Luke 10:18? the missing word is "EARTH" !!! Satan wasn't thrown on EARTH in Luke 10:18 while in Rev.12:9, we read:

So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

To a degree you are making an argument from silence. Just because the word earth is not present in Luke 10:18 does not necessarily prove that he did not fall to the earth.

Did you look at the link that I posted of what the skies looked like at the birth of Messiah? If the first part of Revelation 12 can be shown to be in the past, we can't automatically assume that all of the rest of it is still future.

So my theory about this is more correct than those who think Satan has been already physically thrown to the earth. And I believe it's not only my theory. Of course, this world is in his hands since Adam's fall, but it doesn't necessary mean that he resides here yet. That time will come, as we read in Revelation 12, where Satan WILL BE thrown to earth even with all his fallen angels.
Satan and fallen angels are in original εν τοις επουρανιοις en tois epouraniois (in places above sky, heavenly areas, but maybe not in that heaven where YHVH sits on the throne with Yeshua, also inhabited by angels) now. Do you agree that the eschatologic spiritual situation is the same now as was in time of first apostles? We live in the same Aion of Grace, time of gospel preaching for all nations, and none of the eschatological ends has occured from that time until now.

Do you have any proof for your statement above that "none of the eschatological ends has occurred from that time until now?"

If you do, then Apostle Paul wrote this concerning spiritual warfare:

Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[or another translation: rulers of this darkness.] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

It only gives a location on the "spiritual wickedness." It does not say where any of the other forces are stationed.

If they were in times of Paul, they are there today until Revelation 12:9 and the rest take place.

What proof do you have for that statement?

And it follows...
Rev.12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

Now, it isn't the time when woe to inhabitants (that would mean us). Why woe to us? We are not subject to God's wrath to unleash his wrath to those who are His righteous people.
Woe to inhabitants - those who live not according to His word. There occurs change of Aion - Aion of judgement. And "rejoice O heavens, and you who dwell in them!" in the verse point to those who have been taken at that time in rapture to heaven.

What evidence do you have for the last statement? That is another theology without scriptural evidence.

Woe to inhabitants are not today's people - believers and lawless together - there will come some parting.
As far as Revelation is chronological, Revelation 13 absolutely follows chapter 12. This is what everyone must agree on. In Rev.13 you read about all the triumvirate - there's the Dragon, Satan who is being thrown into EARTH in that time, angels are not mentioned here, but from Rev.12 we know they will also be here. And then - the Beast who is given authority by Dragon, and then the second beast that points to the Prime Beast to be worshipped. Don't you see this similar as the Father God has given authority to Yeshua that everyone shall bow to Him(Phillipans 2:9-10), and Ruach is the one who points on Yeshua?

What is going to be destroyed at Y'shua's coming? Could it be that the "mystery of iniquity" is what is being destroyed? The indication overall from scripture is that "antichrist" is a spirit. We are told that it was already around in the world when John was writing.

"What" is going to be destroyed...? You should ask "who" and not "what". No, "Mystery of iniquity" it couldn't be. Scripture doesn't give such fundament for it. It gives fundament for person. Read carefully:

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
(2 Thess. 2:7-8)

We can't allegorize persons into abstract principles. By the way, it sounds very paganic and atheistic as well as people doesn't believe in God - person, literally, but believe in "something", saying "that something" could be God. Allegoric interpretation, when it isn't needed, is the worst cancer and heresy from Origen, Augustin and their fellows, that has been sown.
Today I have read one article named "Chronicle of future" about replacement theology and theory of "allegoric and figurative interpretation" and how it has begun. From Origen, Augustin and even Luther... ...LOL powered by 2! Thank Lord that amillenialism is seen as foolish for sober people and that true eschatological belief as first christians/messianics had, has been restored by fundamental evangelical and charismatic theologians.
Bitter is that now we can see the consequences of allegorization not only in Catholic church, but even in protestant denominations.
But I have retained my infinite faith in His Word, that when He says something in Bible, He is able to do it literally. May all people say that I am naive, but let them be warned that if they do so, in that cause they are unbelievers(as Thomas was) and I am true believer.
Why do we seek shelter in allegoric interpretation when it isn't needed? Because we do not believe it could happen, even if it doesn't contradict Word? Did we become so materialistic?

Jonatan, what I am doing is questioning certain theological positions that can not be proven by the scriptures themselves. So much of this theology does not have it's basis in the scriptures. In fact, the scripture proves many of these "theories" such as the rapture to be incorrect.

[Jonatan]

Satan has been thrown from his position in heaven as he once had. He was thrown from heavenly realm of the God, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he was thrown on earth. In Rev.12 he will be definitely thrown from all heavens to the earth and will never return there since then. At least you can't find that he would ever return. It is something different that he has power above the earth and that he would be thrown here physically. Same with Yeshua - none can say that He is here on earth, while He is in heaven with Father.

According to rapture theory, yes, in the classical rapture theories (pre-trib, mid-trib. and post-trib.), there can be found contradictions. So did I find. That's why I had to develop a new eschatological view (have you seen GREAT TRIBULATION - REVISION NEEDED, my post in eschatologic topics here in forum?) by that way that it could be compact and none of the passages from scripture could contradict it.
If we want true theology, we must make sure it is compact with the rest of the scripture and that nothing does contradict it.
See my post there and post your comments, try to find contradictions and we'll be working on it... if it has some holes, maybe we can fill them or find more biblical solution for it.
I carry hopes that I can bring some news that are biblically correct, if not, , well some another day we will have to understand whole eschatology, for it was written for us that we had to understand it before it comes. As in Daniel, at the end, in chapter 12., there's written that "knowlegde of this shall abound and many will seek this". And that "none of the godless will understand, but the righteous SHALL UNDERSTAND". It is our CALL OF DUTY TO UNDERSTAND.

What proof do you have for that statement?

- (statements about my main topics that:
-none of the eschatological ends has occurred from that time until now
-the spiritual period of Paul is the same as we are living in - Aion of Grace
-Rev.12 hasn't occured yet and thus not woe to us, who only this time live on earth)

What evidence do you have for the last statement? That is another theology without scriptural evidence.

Do you think anything has happened from Paul and first apostles until now?
Do you think Medieval age including Roman Catholic church and protestant denominations were so important in Lord's eyes, and had some strong impact on fulfillment of eschatological events? Events of centuries AD. are not important and haven't fulfilled eschatological prophecies.

So we need to check times of the end of this era(Aion of Grace) in Matthew 24, and in other synoptic gospels. Aion of Grace is not a made-up theological view, Yeshua himself says about preaching gospel into all parts of the earth that until this is done, this Aion cannot end.

Matthew 24:3Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age(not "world" as in some translations, but in original - "Aion")?”
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me(or:my witnesses) in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

Someone may say: "But gospel is now being preached to almost all nations" - it's not so sure, yeah, it is preached to the most of the world, but not into uttermost parts of the earth. We can't say from what we see that all countries have been preached to. Gospel is not everywhere in the world, and it must expand to whole earth, all nations, all tribes, all languages.
Consider this verse:

Matthew 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Do you see that? Never in the history has happened such thing. It never happened that ALL nations would hate us because of our belonging to Yeshua. World must change somehow to be possible that this verse may fulfill. David Wilkerson prophesied that there must be created global ecumenical, syncretic church in fashion of New Age, that will persecute true believers that doesn't do according to her teaching.
And this seems quite biblical - it doesn't contradict scripture. It's the best possible scenario of times before end. The mass apostasy, lawlessness, (and that people will betray one another gives sense of mass apostasy) cannot occur when they weren't first christians. For that is the idea of mass apostasy - not just godless unbelievers in the world that haven't ever accepted gospel, but betrayal in the midst of the world-spread church, who were once believers.

Revelation 12 is surrounded by chapter 11 and 13. Both of them are in relation with chapter 12. We cannot separate them. Why? Read from Ch.11 to 13.
Did you find any common things that link these chapters?
Yeah, there are 1260 days, 42 months and "time and times and a half-time" - the same period of 3 and half years. There are two such periods - 1st period of two witnesses and the 2nd of the Beast.
And that's also in Rev.12 - both times are there.

Do you think that the kingdom of the Beast is presence? I don't think so. His rule is only 3 and half years. I am 22 years old and I haven't seen anything that Yeshua would come from heaven to rule here. And not ever in history have this occured. If it were history, we would either live in 1000yrs kingdom or we wouldn't have ever been born.

[itiswritten]

Jan 27, 2010 10:39:21 GMT -5 Jonatan said:

Satan has been thrown from his position in heaven as he once had. He was thrown from heavenly realm of the God, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he was thrown on earth. In Rev.12 he will be definitely thrown from all heavens to the earth and will never return there since then. At least you can't find that he would ever return. It is something different that he has power above the earth and that he would be thrown here physically. Same with Yeshua - none can say that He is here on earth, while He is in heaven with Father.

We may not be able to come to agreement on this part. Although it could be future, I have not seen any evidence showing this.

According to rapture theory, yes, in the classical rapture theories (pre-trib, mid-trib. and post-trib.), there can be found contradictions. So did I find. That's why I had to develop a new eschatological view (have you seen GREAT TRIBULATION - REVISION NEEDED, my post in eschatologic topics here in forum?) by that way that it could be compact and none of the passages from scripture could contradict it.

Okay, I'll try to read that some time. I agree that is is important to not have contradictions.

If we want true theology, we must make sure it is compact with the rest of the scripture and that nothing does contradict it.
See my post there and post your comments, try to find contradictions and we'll be working on it... if it has some holes, maybe we can fill them or find more biblical solution for it.

I totally agree with you here. True theology must be built upon what the "scriptures" say about a given topic and cannot be in conflict with what the scriptures say. Okay, I'll try to check out that thread sometime. If you want to post some new ideas on it too, that would be good.

I carry hopes that I can bring some news that are biblically correct, if not, , well some another day we will have to understand whole eschatology, for it was written for us that we had to understand it before it comes. As in Daniel, at the end, in chapter 12., there's written that "knowlegde of this shall abound and many will seek this". And that "none of the godless will understand, but the righteous SHALL UNDERSTAND". It is our CALL OF DUTY TO UNDERSTAND.

I agree. It is definitely possible to understand much of prophecy. However, in order to do that it often requires us scrutinizing our theology and the beliefs that we have inherited intensely. I definitely believe you can bring views that are biblical correct.

- (statements about my main topics that:
-none of the eschatological ends has occurred from that time until now
-the spiritual period of Paul is the same as we are living in - Aion of Grace
-Rev.12 hasn't occured yet and thus not woe to us, who only this time live on earth)

I don't think that you can produce evidence that "none of the eschatological ends has occurred from that time until now." What about the destruction of the temple in 70 ad? That was the first thing that Y'shua mentioned in Matthew 24. What about Israel being reborn as a nation in 1948 and reclaiming Jerusalem in 1967. These are just a few of the obvious prophetic fulfillment, but no doubt there are many more.

Do you think anything has happened from Paul and first apostles until now?
Do you think Medieval age including Roman Catholic church and protestant denominations were so important in Lord's eyes, and had some strong impact on fulfillment of eschatological events? Events of centuries AD. are not important and haven't fulfilled eschatological prophecies.

Sorry, but I totally disagree and gave a few examples above. I don't believe that YHVH has been taking a nap for the last 2,000 years. I think that things have been unfolding all of that time.

So we need to check times of the end of this era(Aion of Grace) in Matthew 24, and in other synoptic gospels. Aion of Grace is not a made-up theological view, Yeshua himself says about preaching gospel into all parts of the earth that until this is done, this Aion cannot end.

Where in the scripture does this theology of the "Aion of Grace" appear? There has always been grace. Take a look at Noah.

Matthew 24:3Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age(not "world" as in some translations, but in original - "Aion")?”
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me(or:my witnesses) in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

What statement by Y'shua caused the disciples to ask these questions?

Matthew 24:3[/b]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

Look at the first two verses.

Matthew 24:1-2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[/b]

Again, the very first thing that Y'shua mentions in answering the disciples questions was the destruction of the temple. That happened in 70 ad.

Someone may say: "But gospel is now being preached to almost all nations" - it's not so sure, yeah, it is preached to the most of the world, but not into uttermost parts of the earth. We can't say from what we see that all countries have been preached to. Gospel is not everywhere in the world, and it must expand to whole earth, all nations, all tribes, all languages.
Consider this verse:

Matthew 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Do you see that? Never in the history has happened such thing.

Absolutely. It has happened a lot. Research the inquisition, the crusades, the holocaust, etc. Take your pick.

It never happened that ALL nations would hate us because of our belonging to Yeshua.

Do you not think that nations have always hated those who have the testimony of Y'shua and keep the commandments of YHVH?

World must change somehow to be possible that this verse may fulfill. David Wilkerson prophesied that there must be created global ecumenical, syncretic church in fashion of New Age, that will persecute true believers that doesn't do according to her teaching.

Does scripture say that must happen?

And this seems quite biblical - it doesn't contradict scripture. It's the best possible scenario of times before end. The mass apostasy, lawlessness, (and that people will betray one another gives sense of mass apostasy) cannot occur when they weren't first christians. For that is the idea of mass apostasy - not just godless unbelievers in the world that haven't ever accepted gospel, but betrayal in the midst of the world-spread church, who were once believers.

Revelation 12 is surrounded by chapter 11 and 13. Both of them are in relation with chapter 12. We cannot separate them. Why? Read from Ch.11 to 13.
Did you find any common things that link these chapters?
Yeah, there are 1260 days, 42 months and "time and times and a half-time" - the same period of 3 and half years. There are two such periods - 1st period of two witnesses and the 2nd of the Beast.
And that's also in Rev.12 - both times are there.

I have a couple of questions. It says to one of the seven churches that you will have "tribulation ten days." Do think that means ten literal days. It says in Hosea "After two days he will revive us and on the third day raise us up." Do you believe that those two and three days are literal. Again, Daniel discusses 70 weeks. Do you believe that those weeks are literal weeks? Food for thought..

Do you think that the kingdom of the Beast is presence? I don't think so. His rule is only 3 and half years. I am 22 years old and I haven't seen anything that Yeshua would come from heaven to rule here. And not ever in history have this occured. If it were history, we would either live in 1000yrs kingdom or we wouldn't have ever been born.

I have pretty much discussed a lot of this already. Interesting discussion

[Jonatan]

For security, for now I am giving myself a distance from commenting Hosea and "tribulation of 10 days" said to Smyrna, because it's more difficult to answer than this thread. I take Scripture as a puzzle, and difficult things can be solved only when the less difficult or the easy ones are.

Let's take and example of my building of the correct and biblical rapture theory, in correct time (we want it correct according to Bible and as a student of history, I know that to Lord is 1 day as 1000years and counterwise, but He does heed to us men, and in our world 1 day is 1 day and 1000yrs is 1000yrs. Everything has its chronology, time of beginning and an end.)
Such plain literal statements that in 1.Cor.15:51-52 by Paul: it is a mystery that in the last trump, there will occur ressurection and rapture together, then in 1.Thess.4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
This gives us assurance that this must occur in future, when the last trump sound - that means the trump after which no trumpet shall sound - at least not trumpet from heaven - because this says only about heavenly trumpets.
Then in Revelation we have only 7 trumpets after which no trumpet will ever be sounded from heaven. Even in OT prophets there's no trumpet from God that would sound after that 7th from the Revelation. If you think you can find some, post some correct verses. I know there are some war trumpets in Prophets, but none of them, as far as I know, is eschatologic.
During 6th trumpet, he have another witness with Paul, who brings more light to Paul's 1.Cor,15:51. That angel, with book in his hand, in Revelation 10, swears on the Living Forever, that there'll be no longer delay but in the DAYS of 7th angel sounding his trumpet will that mystery take place. 7th Trumpet sounds in Revelation 11:15, after two witnesses are killed.
Thus we have two or three witnesses - we have here Paul, angel in Rev.10, and we can count also Yeshua himself in Matthew 24:31 - so this is not HIS 2nd coming on earth, but only on clouds, taking those who are to be taken by means of 1.Cor.15:51-52 and 1.Thesss.4:16.
These pieces of biblical puzzle are giving us one compact part - their common denominator is - RAPTURE after Tribulation, while the tribulation (from Mat.24) is not whole 3,5 yrs of Beast's reign, but only THE FIRST DAYS OF IT. Look that "THOSE DAYS" is a keyword for the period of rapture, so it has only possible range of maybe one or two weeks - through all Matt.24 there are "tribulation of THOSE DAYS", and in Rev.10:7 (in THE DAYS of sounding of the 7th trumpet...).

I don't want to make heretical theologies as Watchtower witnesses do with Bible, and when it is shown that it doesn't go together, they hide it and throw it out, then come with something new, saying then again that the new thing is the only true theology, but so they did with the fomer that has been thrown out.
I want to weld up together such true theology which Lord has given for us to find it. Such theology which being attacked would mean attack on the Scripture itself, so that it may not change, but be fixed on the stable Rock, on the Cornerstone in Zion - on Yeshua, the Word of God (Isaiah 28:16...).

70 A.D. with destruction of the temple is truly an important sad event, that even Luke comments in chapter 21, but the eschatological chapters in gospels are not something that happened, because it shows the last days before Yeshua's return, it shows "what is the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" - Mat.24:3, Mark 13:4. Disciples and 1st church indeed thought that destruction of the temple would mean return of Yeshua, but it hasn't happened. Maybe even the next temple to be built will then have to be destroyed according to Matthew 24:1-2 and Mark 13:1-2.
Yeshua brought up a view of the last days before his return. Yeshua hasn't returned on clouds, Ressurection&rapture hasn't occured, and Yeshua hasn't returned on earth yet.
Luke possibly writes about 70 A.D., but doesn't mention Daniel, which Matthew and Mark does mention, so Luke's 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." is maybe not Matthew's 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ‘abomination from desolaTOR,’ (not "abomination of desolation" - theologians, correct the translation) spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)
and Mark's 13:14“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolaTOR,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)

Daniel 9:27 says not about destruction, but about idol in the temple, so does Daniel 11:31. Abomination = idol, not destruction, because there could be written instead "when you see the desolation", but there are both words. HaShikootz M'Shomem... and that the condemnation shall pour upon Shomem - Shomem is that destroYER, corrupTOR, person.
Theologians should correct verse from Daniel 9:27 "Vehigbir berit larabiim shavua ehhad vachatzi ha shavua yashbit zevahh uminhha V'AL KENAF SHIKOOTZIIM M'SHOMEM, vead kala v'nehheratza tittahh al shomem."
Not that "on the wing of abominations? shall be one who makes desolate?", but "on the wing there will be SHIKOOTZIM M'SHOMEM...", "on the wing there will be ABOMINATIONS FROM DESOLATOR - HIS ABOMINATIONS"

About the persecutions in history, inquisition, holocaust, and so on, they we only local. In history there wasn't globalization, so there couldn't be fulfilled Matthew 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by ALL NATIONS for My name’s sake.
Look on the "ALL NATIONS" - world will stick together GLOBALLY to persecute Christians and Jews.

Many of the prophecies about Israel are fulfilled, I agree, possibly most of them in OT prophets, but not eschatological prophecies - they are incomplete yet. We can't see in Revelation anything fulfilled for Israel today. But we can expect that some years or a century later, we should.

[itiswritten]

Jan 29, 2010 6:45:08 GMT -5 Jonatan said:

For security, for now I am giving myself a distance from commenting Hosea and "tribulation of 10 days" said to Smyrna, because it's more difficult to answer than this thread. I take Scripture as a puzzle, and difficult things can be solved only when the less difficult or the easy ones are.

For security? Okay, I also mentioned the 70 weeks of Daniel. I think that it is clear that you do not take those time frames literally. How then do you automatically take the other time frames literally? Might I suggest that it is because of indoctrination and things you have heard and read from Bible prophecy teachers?

Let's take and example of my building of the correct and biblical rapture theory, in correct time (we want it correct according to Bible and as a student of history, I know that to Lord is 1 day as 1000years and counterwise, but He does heed to us men, and in our world 1 day is 1 day and 1000yrs is 1000yrs. Everything has its chronology, time of beginning and an end.)

We can't say that on one hand that YHVH calculates time different than man and add a "but" to it and determine that it is irrelevant.

Such plain literal statements that in 1.Cor.15:51-52 by Paul: it is a mystery that in the last trump, there will occur ressurection and rapture together, then in 1.Thess.4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
This gives us assurance that this must occur in future, when the last trump sound - that means the trump after which no trumpet shall sound - at least not trumpet from heaven - because this says only about heavenly trumpets.
Then in Revelation we have only 7 trumpets after which no trumpet will ever be sounded from heaven. Even in OT prophets there's no trumpet from God that would sound after that 7th from the Revelation. If you think you can find some, post some correct verses. I know there are some war trumpets in Prophets, but none of them, as far as I know, is eschatologic.
During 6th trumpet, he have another witness with Paul, who brings more light to Paul's 1.Cor,15:51. That angel, with book in his hand, in Revelation 10, swears on the Living Forever, that there'll be no longer delay but in the DAYS of 7th angel sounding his trumpet will that mystery take place. 7th Trumpet sounds in Revelation 11:15, after two witnesses are killed.
Thus we have two or three witnesses - we have here Paul, angel in Rev.10, and we can count also Yeshua himself in Matthew 24:31 - so this is not HIS 2nd coming on earth, but only on clouds, taking those who are to be taken by means of 1.Cor.15:51-52 and 1.Thesss.4:16.

We cannot continue to see prophecy through the tainted lenses of Greek thinking Christianity and see things accurately. In order to understand what is written we have to see it through the lense of the Hebrew language, culture, and festivals.

In Hebrew thinking related to the festivals, there are three trumps. The first trump relates to Feast of Shavaot. The last trump IS NOT THE LITERALLY LAST TRUMP. The last trump is associated with the Feast of Trumpets. Then there is the Great Trump. It is associated with Yom Kippur. There is more information given in these passages than most realize, but it must be viewed through Hebrew eyes.

These pieces of biblical puzzle are giving us one compact part - their common denominator is - RAPTURE after Tribulation, while the tribulation (from Mat.24) is not whole 3,5 yrs of Beast's reign, but only THE FIRST DAYS OF IT. Look that "THOSE DAYS" is a keyword for the period of rapture, so it has only possible range of maybe one or two weeks - through all Matt.24 there are "tribulation of THOSE DAYS", and in Rev.10:7 (in THE DAYS of sounding of the 7th trumpet...).

I don't want to make heretical theologies as Watchtower witnesses do with Bible, and when it is shown that it doesn't go together, they hide it and throw it out, then come with something new, saying then again that the new thing is the only true theology, but so they did with the fomer that has been thrown out.
I want to weld up together such true theology which Lord has given for us to find it. Such theology which being attacked would mean attack on the Scripture itself, so that it may not change, but be fixed on the stable Rock, on the Cornerstone in Zion - on Yeshua, the Word of God (Isaiah 28:16...).

70 A.D. with destruction of the temple is truly an important sad event, that even Luke comments in chapter 21, but the eschatological chapters in gospels are not something that happened, because it shows the last days before Yeshua's return, it shows "what is the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" - Mat.24:3, Mark 13:4.

You are missing a key component in their conversation. Y'shua tells them that the temple will be destroyed. This is what prompted their THREE QUESTIONS.

• WHEN WILL THESE THINGS HAPPEN?
  
• And what will be the sign of your coming?
  
• And of the end of the age?
  

The first part of their question was WHEN. This was related to his statement that not one stone shall remain upon another than shall not be cast down. In other words the whole discussion began with the destruction of the temple. That cannot be just swept aside because it is in conflict with the theory/model of eschatology of mainstream Christianity. The things that Y'shua stated span a long period of time, not 3 1/2 or 7 years.

Disciples and 1st church indeed thought that destruction of the temple would mean return of Yeshua, but it hasn't happened. Maybe even the next temple to be built will then have to be destroyed according to Matthew 24:1-2 and Mark 13:1-2.
Yeshua brought up a view of the last days before his return. Yeshua hasn't returned on clouds, Ressurection&rapture hasn't occured, and Yeshua hasn't returned on earth yet.
Luke possibly writes about 70 A.D., but doesn't mention Daniel, which Matthew and Mark does mention, so Luke's 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." is maybe not Matthew's 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ‘abomination from desolaTOR,’ (not "abomination of desolation" - theologians, correct the translation) spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)
and Mark's 13:14“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolaTOR,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)

Daniel 9:27 says not about destruction, but about idol in the temple, so does Daniel 11:31. Abomination = idol, not destruction, because there could be written instead "when you see the desolation", but there are both words. HaShikootz M'Shomem... and that the condemnation shall pour upon Shomem - Shomem is that destroYER, corrupTOR, person.
Theologians should correct verse from Daniel 9:27 "Vehigbir berit larabiim shavua ehhad vachatzi ha shavua yashbit zevahh uminhha V'AL KENAF SHIKOOTZIIM M'SHOMEM, vead kala v'nehheratza tittahh al shomem."
Not that "on the wing of abominations? shall be one who makes desolate?", but "on the wing there will be SHIKOOTZIM M'SHOMEM...", "on the wing there will be ABOMINATIONS FROM DESOLATOR - HIS ABOMINATIONS"

About the persecutions in history, inquisition, holocaust, and so on, they we only local. In history there wasn't globalization, so there couldn't be fulfilled Matthew 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by ALL NATIONS for My name’s sake.
Look on the "ALL NATIONS" - world will stick together GLOBALLY to persecute Christians and Jews.

You are adding stipulations that are not scriptural. The word for "nations" is merely "ethnos."

NT:1484 ethnos (eth'-nos); probably from NT:1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication, pagan): KJV - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The scripture does not say "there must be a global government before this can come to pass." Those persecutions were hardly local. You should check out a little history.

Many of the prophecies about Israel are fulfilled, I agree, possibly most of them in OT prophets, but not eschatological prophecies - they are incomplete yet. We can't see in Revelation anything fulfilled for Israel today. But we can expect that some years or a century later, we should.

You must understand that the "last days" is not necessarily a "future" thing. We have been in the "last days" for about 2,000 years. This stuff has been unfolding all along. Go back and look at many of the prophetic fulfillment in the NT such as Joel's prophecy and the coming of Elijah. You will see that as these things happened the religious systems were totally unaware of it.

Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

I realize that a lot of what I have said flies in the face of main stream Christian eschatology. However, what we must evaluate is which one is scriptural?

[Jonatan]

You are adding stipulations that are not scriptural. The word for "nations" is merely "ethnos."

NT:1484 ethnos (eth'-nos); probably from NT:1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication, pagan): KJV - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The scripture does not say "there must be a global government before this can come to pass." Those persecutions were hardly local. You should check out a little history.

No matter if it's "nations" or "tribes" or "Gentile" or "people". Ok, all nations without Israel(they're not gentiles). The important is the word "ALL" - that ALL these ethnos will persecute us shows us that possible globalization is needed. I believe this can ONLY be fulfilled ONCE GOSPEL was preached totally EVERYWHERE and scripture gives me basis for it - Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
Said by other words: it cannot happen until gospel is preached to all nations. Does it give picture to you now? Can you imagine world united with one propaganda - by all political means, to dispose of those who believe in Yeshua?

In history, gospel was never preached to all nations. And we can't count only Europe or Roman Empire of those days as "all those nations". Globalization and modern events has given an opportunity for world to fulfill what they ever couldn't. Because the countries of the world were not united. Thus was the Inquisition quite local - Europe only, China wasn't afflicted in way that is nowadays. Crusades were quite local, Holocaust wasn't persecution for Yeshua's name, it was racistic and nationalistic - antisemetic matter only. Only if you know about some nazi secret agenda against all who follow Yeshua, because I don't know any.

Now about the destruction of the temple. I know you stress it's important. And somehow, it is. But feelings and views of first disciples and Jewish people of Yeshua's reign on earth were too passionate and they expected it to come too early. All theologians will tell you that they expected Yeshua's coming with destruction of the temple. Therefore there were zealot groups waiting in their time for coming of Messiah to liberate them from gentile, Roman supremacy. In spite of these events, Bar Kochba was elected by them as possible "Messiah" and many other like him.
However, Messiah hadn't come on earth as king - as Son of David (only as Son of Yoseph). It seems that YHVH had quite another plans for timing the events. Yeshua will come and yet hadn't come.