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Post by itiswritten on Feb 7, 2010 0:24:14 GMT -5
What cannot happen until the gospel is preached to all nations? I'm not sure which event you are meaning can't happen until this. I would remind you though that the gospel was preached unto Abraham (Gal 3) as well as Israel in the wilderness (Heb 4:2) I find this interesting too: Romans 10:16-18 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Part of Romans is quoting Psalm 19. Psalm 19:1-6 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. Sure I can imagine a lot of things, but I'm trying to base my understanding upon what the scriptures actually say. Sorry, but I don't see the crusades, inquisition and many other persecutions that occurred to be merely small local occurrences. Expected what to come too early. Y'shua's return? Remember we are talking about several issues here. - When will these things happen?
- What will be the sign of your coming?
- And of the end of the age?
That is not a good reason to accept that belief. There are several passages of scripture that indicate otherwise. Well, we agree upon that anyway. What I am pointing out with a lot of the things that I have stated including the destruction of the temple is that the things Y'shua mentions in Matt 24 covers a wide span of time. I already showed a number of scriptures that illustrates that we have been in the last days for at least 2,000 years. |
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Feb 9, 2010 7:20:14 GMT -5
It seems we agree on some things - as you agree on some important matters with me - that Yeshua's return is before us, I can agree also with you about the time span of 2000 yrs we are living in since Yeshua's times.
Mat 24. can begin with destruction of the temple (that there'll be no stone on stone, not broken), so does Daniel 9:26 if we paralelly read them both.
Matthew 24:2 Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
This says about death of HaMashiach Yeshua and following destruction of the temple in 70 A.D., you agree with me, don't you?
Then, Mat.24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,(correct formulation is in original - in hebrew)’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),
links rather with this:
Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate(correct is: on the wing(temple in Septuaginta) there'll be abominations (hebr.: idols) of desolatOR),
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate. (rather desolaTOR)
Destruction of the temple is not "that abomination". Scriptures are chronological, they can't skip one after/before another. Destruction occured yet - earlier, if you read verse 26, it's not in 27 yet. Nor in Mat.24:15 that bid us to see Dan.9:27. Very interesting is Yeshua's statement (whoever reads, let him understand), because there could be the spiritual key revelation that we should look into original, because those who says that "the abomination" is destruction of the temple, do not understand. It seems it was extremely needed to add that statement (whoever reads...), because I can tell you, I also thought of it to be destruction of the temple, but after I read in Joachim Langhammer's: What will happen to this world, that "the abomination of desolation" is unfortunate translation, that it doesn't say about destroying physically, but about idol - and then i revised it in original Hebrew - it was there: HaShikootz MeShomem. "Shikootz" in hebrew is abomination - and it's synonym to idol, so it can't be mere physical destruction. Therefore there will be put an idol to the temple what hadn't happened, because with it (Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolaTOR. - that means immediately with the end of 2nd half of him that shall put an abomination), there comes also immediate return of Yeshua to avenge and punish the desolaTOR. That desolaTOR, of whom they shall put his "Shikootz" to the temple, as we read in Daniel 11:35. The desolaTOR is the Northern King as we read about him in Daniel 11, and it's he, the same that is in Daniel 8:23 to 25, who shall one day stand against Prince of Princes (Yeshua, who else?) and shall perish. And it's he, it's the desolaTOR, person, not a conglomeration of kingdoms. We cannot allegorize person to corporation or conglomeration, nor king to kingdom. Beast is kingdom, but also king(one of the seven - Rev.17:11). It is the person, king - the Beast at whom people shall marvel to see it coming from underworld, something as "rising from the dead" Rev.17:8. You think conglomerations of kingdoms shall rise from abyssos on whom people would marvel? Some people interpret it that it will be Roman Empire reunited, carrying signs of other kingdoms (lion-babylon, bear-medopersia, leopard-greece, with 10 roman horns of the 10-horned terrible beast). But it is already here in world, and there's nothing to marvel about it. No because, as we read, people - unbelievers, cos their lives are not written in Lamb's book shall marvel, because they don't believe that Satan also exist and is supernatural and that he has his own champion to rise from abyssos, showing himself as Ubermensch, "God-like", someone that people hadn't seen because they didn't believe in Yeshua and in all what He had done.
(OH, lol, sorry for much writing in one piece. It may be quite inconvenient to read, but I hope you'll get thru it with all understanding.)
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Post by itiswritten on Feb 11, 2010 9:25:19 GMT -5
It seems we agree on some things - as you agree on some important matters with me - that Yeshua's return is before us, I can agree also with you about the time span of 2000 yrs we are living in since Yeshua's times. Mat 24. can begin with destruction of the temple (that there'll be no stone on stone, not broken), so does Daniel 9:26 if we paralelly read them both. Matthew 24:2 Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. This says about death of HaMashiach Yeshua and following destruction of the temple in 70 A.D., you agree with me, don't you? Yes, that is my current understanding. I have a question that I want you to think about: What is upon the temple mount now and how long has it been there? In the vision in Daniel of the image, we see that the "chest and arms of silver" represents the Media-Persian Empire. Here is another question to think about: How many legs did the image have and what do they represent? No problem Jonatan. It's been a good discussion with lots of things to think about and consider. |
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Feb 12, 2010 7:00:00 GMT -5
Food for though, indeed. I'll have to take time, observe, study and compare. Let me download this topic and study it at home for some time.
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Post by itiswritten on Feb 15, 2010 17:15:09 GMT -5
Okay Jonatan. Whenever you have some new thoughts or info, be sure and post it.
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Post by John on Feb 27, 2010 11:26:01 GMT -5
Both of your interpretations are rather off. But there is too much material for me to respond.
-john
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Post by itiswritten on Feb 28, 2010 18:37:24 GMT -5
Both of your interpretations are rather off. But there is too much material for me to respond. -john John, you have really been a paradox for the last several months. Based upon your current philosophy, from what I understand, experimentation is the only way to determine what is wrong or right. By your estimation, both of are interpretations are off, yet you don't even believe that the Bible should be sought for counsel. Neither do you see fit to explain our supposed errors.  |
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Mar 4, 2010 6:57:32 GMT -5
I hope John that this prophecy does not yet refer to you:
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
2 Timothy 4:2-3
Any other sources shall not prosper you to salvation, John. They'll rather tear you from it.
Words of God is God himself. He who doesn't hear His word, doesn't hear Him. You can't love Him more than you love His word(s). That said Yeshua.
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Post by John on Mar 8, 2010 19:03:37 GMT -5
you undersatnd me wrong. my ethical theory is different.
the bible should not be sought for for counsel-- well, not totally. not the way most christians go to it.
but there are correct, probable, improbable, and wrong interpretations of texts. that is just a fact.
i hope this doesnt refer to you, jonatan:
"pick the log out of your own eye before you remove the speck of dust from another's"
or
"Matthew 23:25-28 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."
Listen to these verses:
"Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
Job 9:30-31 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.
Isaiah 57:12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.
no matter what we do, god will love us and forgive us. does this mean we should sin, even though grace has forgiven us? no. (reference to romans). but we can be assured that his love is unlimitless.
nothing, not depth nor height, principality or power can seperate us from God's love- not even sin. no matter how much your minds scream this is wrong, paul says otherwise. we are loved by God!
also, jonatan, i have to ask you to stop giving an apocalyptic tone to everything you say. the end is imminent! you say. but no.. no it isnt. God's plan has just begun. and fire and brimstone is not what the bible is about. yet you seem overabsorbed by it.
-john
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Mar 9, 2010 6:00:46 GMT -5
What does it have with me or with anything I have written? I shall not scream but abide in holy peace and shalom. Why should I scream if I know the truth and can be satisfied in it? I know that doing the will of God (which how else can be perceived than thru Bible?), it is the wisest you can do. I am God-fearing man and try to avoid sin as much as possible, cos I don't want to go into eternal perdition, from where no one can help. In eternity, there's too late for God's love. I could refrain and stop posting cos there are also many other things to do, but this is also sign of love for you. Love is not hippie-like permitting others to do anything. Also, there are differences of sins to be forgiven and those to never be forgiven. You cannot generalize if we both do lesser sins every man does and the grave sins that causes death (according to Torah). 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8Nothing can separate us from His love, nothing EXCEPT of sin. Sin is the sting of death. Or do you think you can sin as much as you want, without repentation and despite it be saved? Lord tests people whether they want to follow Him or not - in fact, he'll make separation. Do you deny the reality of condemnation in Bible or say it's perhaps allegoric? Then why is it also in Bible as the only other way than salvation? - TWO WAYS ONLY: Life or Death - both eternal. But by dropping off the reality of condemnation, John, you are wearing purple glasses. Don't be that naive! see this (unbiased, you don't have to think it's just biased teaching of christian leaders. It's also highly philosophical and yu'll enjoy it.): www.hit.hu/eng/article.html?id=146-it's not 1 page only, list below to next pages. |
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