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Post by John on Aug 28, 2009 20:28:51 GMT -5
This is a complex question, especially within messianic circiles.
can a gentile be a rabbi?
why or why not?
i gues he could. why not? if he is a god-fearer, having the spirit and following the sections of the law that are applicable to him than he is doing the same thing a jew is doing.
but then, we have to take into account dt 23:1-8, forbidding certain types of Gentiles from entering into the assembly (at the temple?):
1 No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the LORD.
2 No one born of a mamzer nor any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation.
3 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation. 4 For they did not come to meet you with bread and water on your way when you came out of Egypt, and they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim to pronounce a curse on you. 5 However, the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam but turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. 6 Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them as long as you live.
7 Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country. 8 The third generation of children born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD.
(NOTE: when Sha'ul said that he wished those of the gospel of the circumcision would emasculate themselves (gal 4) he was possibly referring to dt 23:1)
so, what is your decision?
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Post by itiswritten on Aug 31, 2009 17:36:40 GMT -5
(NOTE: when Sha'ul said that he wished those of the gospel of the circumcision would emasculate themselves (gal 4) he was possibly referring to dt 23:1) so, what is your decision? Which verse are you referring to in Gal? |
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Post by John on Sept 1, 2009 9:57:26 GMT -5
i think it is 5:12... the meaning may refer to emasculation or "cutting off" from the people. but why would he wish people to be cut off who were already cut off from the natural olive tree? from the true vine? i think it refers to emascualtion and have good reasons for doing so, but before i get rambling on it, ill stop. but yeah, thats the verse lol. PS- i put you as a "reviewer" on the virgin birth article, so you can put comments in the margins on what is written. do me a favor and join this new website on my Barukh Yeshua Web Chain: www.barukhyeshua.webs.comi only promised to make members reviewers, and let anyone not a member just be a reader. in fact, i am going to make one posibly 2 other members co-authors with me. shalom (again) |
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Post by John on Sept 7, 2009 17:10:57 GMT -5
so what do you guys think about a gentile beinga rabbi? is it okay?
what do you think the above verses mean?
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Post by itiswritten on Sept 7, 2009 20:56:52 GMT -5
so what do you guys think about a gentile beinga rabbi? is it okay? what do you think the above verses mean? Well I guess that depends entirely on who you ask. In the so-called Messianic movement probably most of those calling themselves rabbi are Gentiles. There are certain groups that you pretty much have to be able to prove your Jewish pedigree in order to hold any position of authority. Personally, I have issues with the whole "rabbi" title anyway as well as "reverend", and all of the other titles stuck in front of so many names. You know Prophet Bill Fold and Pastor Jimmy Cash, Prophetess Ima Fake and Evangelist Dewey Cheatum. I say lets drop all of the titles in front of the names. Y'shua seemed to have a problem with it too. Matthew 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.[/b] If in Messiah there is neither Jew nor Gentile, I think that who ever the Almighty calls to be a teacher or whatever office has all the qualifications necessary.  |
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Post by John on Sept 8, 2009 5:16:00 GMT -5
i agree. the only block to that is deat 23... what does this passage mean?
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Post by itiswritten on Sept 8, 2009 17:32:33 GMT -5
i agree. the only block to that is deat 23... what does this passage mean? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that those prohibitions would rule out a Gentile from becoming a teacher. The way I read it is that a few specific groups were ineligible for a limited period of time. Clearly Gentiles were able to become part of the people of Israel by accepting the Elohim of Yisrael and walking in His ways. |
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2009 13:59:12 GMT -5
yes but those certain groups are gentiles. and since there has been so much interbreeding between the races, what do we do if we are half or less of those races excluded? even if you are mostly jewish, what if you have those excluded groups' blood in you?
with those groups, it is ten generations total, or ten genereations as a metaphor for forever?
shalom- john
EDITED: plus, what about emasculation? does that prohibit one from entering the shul?
one last question: is the congregation of the Lord Israel, shul, temple, tabernacle, ...?
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Sept 9, 2009 21:17:25 GMT -5
Interesting you should bring this up, because I read this passage in the Law the other day and I was wondering what you'd say about it?
Do you think that a believer who has been emasculated cannot enter into the assembly of the saints?
I think this is a perfect example of a law that has been ABROGATED by the Gospel.
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Post by John on Sept 10, 2009 14:21:33 GMT -5
no, i think we should interpret it based off of the truths that the enlightened rabbis taught- it obviously means something different to that culture... i will look into it. but this law seems to have only applied to Gentiles who are emasculated since the whole subject is about gentiles. if this is the case, the emasculated gentile would not be able to be a proselyte (assembly of the lord= israel).
also not able to become proselytes to a period of time are those etnic groups named; they can be saved AS GENTILES, but they can only follow judaism as gentiles and not proselytes. this I think is restricting the limits of proselytizing. it is a chok- in other words, we have no earthly idea on why YHVH commanded it.
shalom
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Sept 10, 2009 20:28:44 GMT -5
[cough] church= true israel [cough]
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
BLUE
Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Sept 11, 2009 8:57:26 GMT -5
true (by flesh) Israel = Israel as nation
spiritual (circumcised in heart) Israel - it's the shadow of foreshadow which is Israel by flesh = Gentilic Ekklesia + Messianic Jews
I'd have one question for today: Can someone as me (being from gentiles) attend Yeshiva to gain rabbinic education? Would they let such people to study?
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Post by John on Sept 11, 2009 14:18:46 GMT -5
I disagree with this. spiritual israel is within israel. gentiles can metaphorically be spiritual jews, but this was a metaphor paul among other rabbis used to state that a rightoues gentile is more righteous than an unrighteous jew. it is not to be taken literally.
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Sept 12, 2009 23:13:55 GMT -5
You make it sound as it a righteous Jew is more righteous than a righteous Gentile  |
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Post by John on Sept 12, 2009 23:55:19 GMT -5
lol. no way. we are all one reggarding the fact that we are all under sin and in need of redemption. but we do have different roles. that doesnt make one better. that wasnt my point= but some jews seem to think that. not the majority however.
shalom
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Post by chesedv'emes on Sept 22, 2009 16:01:43 GMT -5
"rabbi" as it is understood today is someone who has gone to a legitimate yeshiva
and obtained smicha. Since only Jews will be accepted for rabbinical training, I
don't think it is proper for gentiles to call themselves "rabbi".
Actually, I don't think any Messianic, Jew or Gentile, should call themselves "rabbi"
as it implies someone is part of the Jewish, not Messianic, faith.
Why not just come up with a different title, such as teacher, instructor, learned one,
whatever they would like to choose.
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Post by chesedv'emes on Sept 22, 2009 16:06:40 GMT -5
As far as the above verse, I think it is quite clear is is speaking about the male anatomy, to put it politely. |
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2009 15:06:58 GMT -5
i understand your point perfectly. and i do view messianic judaism as JUDAISM, just not RABBINIC judaism; they are seperate movements. so a different name for "teacher" would be wise.
do you accept karaite judaism as judaism?
i agree... but what does "assembly of the lord" mean?
shalom
P.S. Jonatan = John, I had to correct one thing. Only just grammatical matter. You have typed "addmebly instead of assembly, so I corrected it"
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Sept 23, 2009 19:06:27 GMT -5
Just thought I'd interject a thought here. What do you make of Jesus admonition: Matthew 23:8-12 8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.   |
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
BLUE
Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Sept 24, 2009 7:11:10 GMT -5
What exactly is the karaite stream of Judaism? It is not much mentioned. Something like essenes? Well, it looks like they hide the same way as the essenes did.
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