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Post by John on Apr 6, 2009 17:46:36 GMT -5
Yeshua never gave direct answers however. he purpously made it so that you could iinterpret it both ways so as not to be killed for blasphemy or, if he claims that was what he was not saying, perjury.
and would it not be blasphemy to say that Yeshua was YHVH while on earth.
and if i personally had to choose between the dual nature theory and the kenotic theory, i would pick the kenotic theory-- it clears more contradictions; the only problem is that it leans on one verse, with some supporting verses, but if that one verse in phillipians was not there, there would not be a kenotic theory.
the dual nature theory is just plain blasphemy...
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 6, 2009 18:25:20 GMT -5
Yeshua did not tell him not to call Him "my Lord and my God." Rather, His reaction to that comment only seems to affirm what was said of Him. Plus, He accepted worship from more than one person. He never told anyone not to worship Him. While this does not by itself prove Yeshua's deity, I would assume that if Yeshua were not YHVH, He would have corrected them and not accepted anyone's worship. What passage are you referring to that says "my Lord and my God?" From what I have read thus far, this is an argument from silence." For example: Since Paul did not make a statement denying that he had red hair, it must mean that his hair was red.  Hmm...maybe I did not phrase what I meant very clearly. What I meant to say is that the fact that Yeshua did not refute it does not prove that He is YHVH. Rather, it gives strong evidence for it. I'm simply giving evidence that Yeshua did not refute it. The passage in question is John 20:28 26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Someone else said that only one person (Thomas) said this, so what he said does not count. My position is that it does count because of Yeshua's reaction here. He seemed to confirm Thomas' response rather than refute it. |
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 6, 2009 18:31:11 GMT -5
Where did he claim to be equal with the Father? John 5:18 18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 6, 2009 19:04:56 GMT -5
Where did he claim to be equal with the Father? John 5:18 18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. LOL! Context, who is saying he made himself equal to God? You'll never find those words in red letters! Shalom |
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Post by John on Apr 6, 2009 19:07:14 GMT -5
just because his authority is basically equal to YHVH does not make him YHVH. plus, this was the jews who wanted to kil him's reasoning, not Yochanon. In all actualiy, Yeshua has all authority under heaven and earth, because YHVH gave it to him. the only thing Yeshua doesnt have authority over is YHVH himself.
again, look at 'is metatron yeshua' and read what i have to say about Yeshua in his pre-incarnate and post-incarnate forms. i also think that the kenotic theory is somewhat correct. i think that the kenotic doctrine taught in phillipians is not that important( which is why it is such a missed passage, and why it is not mentioned more than once) i think the kenotic theory refers to the angelic, preincarnate body of Yeshua, which was taken away temporaily and replaced with a fleshly body while on earth. NOT the attributes of Yeshuas Godship being taken away while on earth.
authoriy does not make Yeshua YHVH.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 6, 2009 19:09:05 GMT -5
Where did he claim to be equal with the Father? John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.[/qutoe] I can turn this passage around to suggest that in John 10 He is making another statement of equality with the Father. 22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29" My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30" I and the Father are one." 31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.32Jesus answered them, " I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, " For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),3 6do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37" If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp. First of all, Yeshua states that His works speak for Him. It should be evident who He is by the good things that He does -- both how He lives His life and what He does. Yes, I realize that everyone here believes that He is the Messiah. But, it seems that for Yeshua being the Messiah also meant that He is YHVH. Yeshua says that those who follow Him know Him, and that He will give them eternal life. He also adds that no one can snatch them out of His hand. He then compares Himself with the Father in the verse that you quoted. He then, in order to back up His earlier statement that no one can snatch them from His (Yeshua's) hand, He makes a statement that asserts His full deity. He says that He and the Father are one. I have heard that the Greek here literally reads, "I and the Father, we are one." This suggests that Yeshua is claiming that both Himself and the Father are YHVH. If no one can snatch out of His Father's hand because His Father is greater than all, then neither can they snatch out of Yeshua's hand because Yeshua and the Father are one. They are the same God (YHVH), though at the same time Yeshua is not the Father. However, the unity between Yeshua and the Father is one in which Yeshua could truthfully state that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. Yeshua can fully back up His claim that He can give people eternal life because of His identity as YHVH. Of interest are two verses in which YHVH Himself makes similar claims to the ones that Yeshua makes about Himself in John 10. Deuteronomy 32:39 39'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. Isaiah 43:13 13"Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?" Any way, reading further in John 10, it seems that those who heard Him make the statements that He did in John 10 consider what He said to be blasphemy. They were going to stone Him for saying it. When Yeshua asked them why they were going to stone Him, there response is that they are going to stone Him for blasphemy because He claimed to be God. Since YHVH is the only God, they clearly understood Yeshua to be saying that He was YHVH. Yeshua's response to what they say is goes like this: if Scripture calls men gods in any sense (human rulers and judges), then how much more can this term be applied to the Messiah . He then goes on to say to not believe Him unless He does what the Father does. He says that His works and miracles that He does speak for Him as to who He is . Both He and the Father are YHVH. Yeshua is equal with the Father because they are the same God and they do the same things. Yeshua's explanation only caused them to want to kill Him again. |
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 6, 2009 19:18:26 GMT -5
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Where was Yeshua when He said that, and where was His Father? Yeshua was on earth and His Father was in heaven. At the time that Yeshua said that, His Father was positionally greater than He was. To be fair, this is one verse that offers evidence against Yeshua's deity. As I have said on other threads, there is both evidence for and evidence against His deity. Each person needs to decide which evidence is stronger. |
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 6, 2009 19:31:08 GMT -5
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.Again, this is another verse that could be used as evidence against His deity. However, another possible interpretation is that Yeshua is asking the person who called Him "good," do You realize what you are saying if you call me good? Perhaps Yeshua did not take the person's statement to be a statement made out of faith. Or "do you realize what you are acknowledging if you call Me good?" Another possible interpretation is that Yeshua wanted the man to realize that he (the man who was talking to him) was not good, and that the only hope that he had was by relying on God. Only God can give eternal life. Yeshua had two natures -- He was both fully God AND fully man. He had to live a perfect life in obedience to the Father in order for Him to truly be sinless. As a human, He too had to rely on the Father, just as all humans do. Prayer means talking to God. Yeshua maintained a relationship with the Father throughout His life on earth. Maintaining a relationship means that He had to talk to the Father. Yeshua had to submit His will to the Father because anything less would be to sin. And yes, it is possible to submit to someone who is equal to you. Submission in and of itself does not imply inequality. Wives are asked to submit to their husbands. Does that mean that they are not equal to their husbands? No. |
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 6, 2009 19:39:44 GMT -5
Yeshua never gave direct answers however. he purpously made it so that you could iinterpret it both ways so as not to be killed for blasphemy or, if he claims that was what he was not saying, perjury. and would it not be blasphemy to say that Yeshua was YHVH while on earth. Is it blasphemy for YHVH to claim to be YHVH? If Yeshua is YHVH, then it's not blasphemy to claim to be YHVH. Rather, it would mean that Yeshua was speaking the truth. It would only be blasphemy if it was not true. Some of the people listening to Him did not believe Him, so they they thought He was blaspheming. Why? I think everyone on this board would agree that Yeshua was human. (Thus, He is fully human). At least two of us on this board (maybe more) believe that He also has a divine nature (Thus, He is fully God -- and by that I mean YHVH) Thus, He has two natures. He has a human nature and a divine nature. |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 6, 2009 19:41:25 GMT -5
NLB, you never cease to ignore and flip plop the scriptures to make them say what you want them to say as if they were written without punctuaion, like in the Original Torah no spaces, no break just letters. But Y H V H spoke them in one long sentance and the universe was formed, I am afraid that a Lawless Christian will find it hard to enter the city by it's gates.
Shalom
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veggirl
B'nai Elohim
YELLOW
Posts: 3
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Post by veggirl on Apr 6, 2009 20:23:43 GMT -5
jeordin
(It bugs me how people worship and praise Jesus)
Why? yeshua for gave sin before calvary and many times people were at his feet.
Jesus Is the living God manifested in the flesh!
This makes a lot of since to me..
Not trinity.. but oneness.. This is what I believe.. there are many things people believe.. I hope we all respect each other .. Peace&love..
PS:
itiswritten Brad scott came to Spokane, he was wonderul person a lot of people were there with a lot of different views wow.. One thing the people that asked him to come here never called us for fellowship or anyone.,, kind of sad a lot of people there didn't have a home fellowship to attend.
But praise the lord, we found one in Idaho.. a wonderful place.. its about a hour away ... but worth the drive...
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Post by John on Apr 6, 2009 21:38:17 GMT -5
Nevert looking back:
what Yeshua replied to the jews accusation of blasphemy is proof that Yeshua was not claiming to be YHVH... lets look at the scripture again:
30"I and the Father are one."
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."
when Yeshua gives the verse in psalms that says "ye are all Gods" remember that the word for God is Elohim. Angels and EVEN MEN can be elohim... you dont have to be YHVH to be elohim. pagan gods were elohim. remember also that Yeshua was comparing his use of Elohim within the same context of MEN IN THE VERSE IN PSALMS being CALLED ELOHIM. He used that as an example. surely he is not saying that these men are YHVH. NO!
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 6, 2009 22:56:09 GMT -5
Nevert looking back: what Yeshua replied to the jews accusation of blasphemy is proof that Yeshua was not claiming to be YHVH... lets look at the scripture again: 30"I and the Father are one." 31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." 34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." when Yeshua gives the verse in psalms that says "ye are all Gods" remember that the word for God is Elohim. Angels and EVEN MEN can be elohim... you dont have to be YHVH to be elohim. pagan gods were elohim. remember also that Yeshua was comparing his use of Elohim within the same context of MEN IN THE VERSE IN PSALMS being CALLED ELOHIM. He used that as an example. surely he is not saying that these men are YHVH. NO! No, Yeshua is not saying the men in the Psalms passage that He quoted from were YHVH. However, everything that Yeshua said before that shows that He is making the claim that the Messiah (Himself) is YHVH. Yeshua can properly be called YHVH because that is who He is. His works prove who He is. Making the statement "I and the Father are one" is not a claim of anything but that of being YHVH, especially when you take into account what He just said about no one being able to snatch out of His hand AND the fact that He said that He gives His followers eternal life. Those who were going to stone Him were acting as His judge. Also, note that Yeshua is not claiming to be "a god" or anything similar to that. He has just finished comparing Himself with the Father, and then said "I and the Father, we are one." The charge of blasphemy is not that Yeshua claimed to be "a god," but that He claimed to be God (YHVH). The Jews correctly believed that there was only one God, and that was YHVH. Anything else that was called god was not a real god. Therefore, they were not accusing Him of making a claim to be a god. Their charge was not, "you make yourself out to be a god." But rather, "you make yourself out to be God." |
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Post by John on Apr 7, 2009 5:50:18 GMT -5
never looking back.. did you read the scripture that Yeshua quoted. firstly, the word is Elohim. secondly, the peole being called elohim are MEN. angels are also called elohim in scripture.
Ysehua was comparing his statements to this when the jews blamed him for blasphemy. so we can deduce that Yeshua must have meant something other than claiming godship, especially if he compared it with men and angels being elohim.
you are ignoring the scripture itself. (note: just because people are elohim does not mean that they art YHVH)
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 7, 2009 8:12:17 GMT -5
never looking back.. did you read the scripture that Yeshua quoted. firstly, the word is Elohim. secondly, the peole being called elohim are MEN. angels are also called elohim in scripture. Ysehua was comparing his statements to this when the jews blamed him for blasphemy. so we can deduce that Yeshua must have meant something other than claiming godship, especially if he compared it with men and angels being elohim. you are ignoring the scripture itself. (note: just because people are elohim does not mean that they art YHVH) I'm attempting to view the Scripture in its full context, which includes what Yeshua was saying before this, which initially made them want to stone Him, as well as the reaction that the people had to His words after His explanation. If Yeshua was trying to say that He was not YHVH, He did not do a very good job of it, because His explanation caused them to want to kill Him AGAIN. They didn't just say, "oh, okay.....we're all good now. We can go home." If what you are claiming Yeshua meant were true, the people would have been satisfied with His response, and they would have left Him alone. Again, Yeshua did not say "I'm an elohim" or "I'm a god." Rather, He claimed identity and the very nature of YHVH by saying that He and the Father were one, and by saying that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him. It isn't the word choice that I'm talking about. I'm talking about the content of what Yeshua was saying. 1.) said that He will give people eternal life 2.) that no one can snatch people out of His hand 3.) that His Father is YHVH, and no one can snatch people out of His (the Father's) hand 4.) that He and the Father are one -- meaning that He is idenifying Himself with the Father, and therefore, He is claiming to be YHVH too 5.) they correctly understood what He was claiming and were going to stone Him for it 6.) He defended His own deity by saying how much more He should be recognized as God. He said that the things that He does should speak for Him as to His identity. 7.) He again identified with the Father, as both He and the Father are YHVH 8.) This caused them to want to kill Him again |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 7, 2009 9:39:47 GMT -5
NLB, remember the thread, Reward for trinity! I know how close Yeshua comes to saying he is Y H V H , but but no where does he suggest you jump off a cliff. This is just what you and those like you have advocated and done. All the places where he PLAINLY tells you he is sent to do a job and he does it he is, fully human and Y H V H when he is resurrected reinstates his heavenly character to him. So says scripture, no false trinity. scripture says Y H V H is Spirit, Yeshua is now Spirit, scripture says we will be transformed into Spirit at resurrection, I don't forfit my call to election by teaching a manmade dogma. I and many others have left Christianity to persue the "truth" and those who repent of trinity and teach the p'shat of scripture do not forfit their call and election. Christians believe that salvation delivers them both, they believe in Jesus, but ignore his words. Many places he tell EVERYBODY clearly that all who call upon the Hashem of the Lord shall be saved! Then he says that NOT everyone who says Lord, Lord shall ever enter the Kingdom, only those who DO the Will of God! Both Tanack and B'rit Hadashah there is verses that warn against ADDING or SUBtracting from the Holy Word. You and those like you ignore the truth in favor of your dogma. Go figure? ?? I pray that you and all who believe a lie will come to the truth and Y H V H gives you all new eyes. May God bless all of you. Shalom |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 7, 2009 9:46:42 GMT -5
Ecclesiastes 2:11 Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.
Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
No profit, no reward! Then why do it?
We deceive ourselves if we say we do not wish to be rewarded for good works. He promised a reward. We are not owed a wage, but we have the promise and I believe him. I do not want to have to hide my face when he calls my name, I am also sure I will receive more than I can imagine. My goal is to be among the Elect.
Whether or not Peter wrote the books attributed to him I believe the instructions given to make your call and election sure.
Accolades of man, thay's all the reward you can receive.
Matthew 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
Fear him who can kill the soul!
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Post by John on Apr 7, 2009 13:54:09 GMT -5
quote>>>If what you are claiming Yeshua meant were true, the people would have been satisfied with His response, and they would have left Him alone.<<<quote
ummm... Yeshua taught a lot of things that people didnt understand. then he clarified the meaning of what he said and they didnt like the doctrine. it may have been truth, but they sstill didnt like it.
so Yeshua clarified his meaning and people still didnt like his doctrine.
we also have to realize that the EXACT words of the dialogue are not there-- there are parts left out, small word changes, etc.
you will have to come up with another scriture (one at a time) for me to believe that Yeshua is YHVH.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 7, 2009 16:15:07 GMT -5
NLB, remember the thread, Reward for trinity! I know how close Yeshua comes to saying he is Y H V H , but but no where does he suggest you jump off a cliff. This is just what you and those like you have advocated and done. All the places where he PLAINLY tells you he is sent to do a job and he does it he is, fully human and Y H V H when he is resurrected reinstates his heavenly character to him. So says scripture, no false trinity. scripture says Y H V H is Spirit, Yeshua is now Spirit, scripture says we will be transformed into Spirit at resurrection, I don't forfit my call to election by teaching a manmade dogma. I am not denying His humanity or the fact that He was sent to do a job. Let me ask you this: Is there only one Almighty God? Or do you believe there can be two Almighty Gods? Actually, Scripture teaches that Yeshua rose bodily from the dead. It is the same body that He died in, but it is glorified. It has been changed to a resurrected body....the same kind of body that believers will get when He returns. Jehovah's Witnesses believe the same thing that you do about Yeshua, and they believe the same thing that you do about His resurrection. They deny that it was a bodily resurrection. |
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 7, 2009 16:20:50 GMT -5
Ecclesiastes 2:11 Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun. Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. 2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. No profit, no reward! Then why do it? Why must everything have a reward attached to it? I believe in the Trinity because that is what I have been convinced of through Scripture. I really don't care about rewards. Won't we lay all our rewards down at the feet of Yeshua anyway? Isn't that what is proper to do? Isn't all done for His glory. It's not to us, and it's not about us. It should be about Him. |
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