Reward of trinity

[pioneer]

There is only one reward for proclaiming trinity; You can call yourself a Christian.

On the flipside of that coin, there are alot of downside.
False teaching,
causing some one else to sin,
many more.

[walt]

Yes, TRUE.

But why is it sooooo important to be called a "christian"?

Yahweh didn't name or call His "christians" - the lost world did.
Why does one who claims to be of Messiah want to be identified by the lost world?

Since I don't seek to be called or identified as a "christian" - I don't have to accept the manmade doctrine of the trinity - I'm free to believe and accept what Elohim proclaims about Himself in Scripture.

At minimum, the trinity is man's feble attempt to define and contain the character and nature of Yahweh and put it into a neat manmade box - but He doesn't fit in that box.

At worst it's a false doctrine constructed by satan to deceive, mislead, and entrap those seeking to Yada (to KNOW in a relational sense) Yahweh Elohim.

Since the trinity doctrine is a fruit of the rcc - I side closer with the later.

[Jonatan]

Some things are to be agreed and some however, are shot over.
I, as many of you too, am ashamed of that what's called Christianity or The Christian church. Shame that world think Catholicism to be Christianity and that they call it. There's also a one fact - not good much, but needed. That we must present ourselves as 'christians' to the world, because it doesn't know anything else. We ARE christians as we received Yeshua (or Jesus) as our Master, but we are not 'The Christians' as world think we are. It is a great misuse of the term. Firstly, the term Christianos was used during Paul's (or Rav Shaul's) missionary travels to those who received Him and beign baptized.
The thing with trinity - even first messianics/christians believed there are three persons. Is that a problem? Not at all. Y
eshua said that we pray to Father in His(Yeshua's) name in Spirit. So we have all three persons occupied here. Father, the Son Yeshua and Ruach HaKodesh as well. Some fanatics would pray to Ruach, but Ruach came after Yeshua's ascention and He came to glorify Yeshua. And Yeshua glorifies the Father. Mutually linked.

[walt]

Apr 2, 2009 10:26:59 GMT -5 Jonatan said:

Firstly, the term Christianos was used during Paul's (or Rav Shaul's) missionary travels to those who received Him and beign baptized.

Scripture please.

[John]

Christianity, as it is now, is as false a religion as hinduism. HOWEVER the original christianity was just a helenistic name for messianic judaism. it onc had derogatory connections, but the helenistic jews and the gentiles adopted it as a name ON THE ADVICE OF SHA"UL (see corinthians). but soon it became corrupted by joining itself with the roman and greek religions so it became popular. sadly, the uncorrupted line of messsianic judaism died out, until recent archeological evidence brought the movement to life again.

[Jeordin]

I've never really claimed myself as Christian, well, when I was younger but then I became atheist, and thought cults were really cool. Then I started believing in GOD, as in not Yeshua. I don't believe in the trinity myself. I recently, about a few months ago actually, started believing in Jesus. biut yeah, though Christianity has many false doctrines which I'm pretty sure originated as it split into two sects: Protestant and Catholicism. Then absolutely every true doctine left was destroyed when Protestants broke off into even more denominations. That's just what i think,no scriptural proof no historical proof, I'm not that type. I go off what comes into my mind not from the internet or someone's writing which is pretty disagreeable. "It's the devil telling you that." I was about to say I don't believe in Ha Satan but I'm not sure about my veiws on that. Anyways sorry, I always have to explain myself and I end up going off topic. Anyway I don't belive int the trinity.

[John]

well jeordin, you cannot believe things blindly without proof... but you pretty much hit the nail in the head

[veggirl]

Jerodin,

Thats so wonderful you're not atheist any more.. Praise the Lord!
I use to be anarchy, not any more. We do need some authority. I am still a little anit-government.

Only when Yeshua comes back to set up his kingdom it will be perfect!

I am a oneness believer, Yeshua is God,,
I have read on the Holy Trinity I just don't understand that at all.
I have even heard of twoness this man explained it to me... I really did understand him..

peace&love bri'gette

[John]

veggirl:

so you believe in the trinity but dont understand it?

[Jeordin]

Well, I do read the Bible. I mean I started because of MF. Everyone always used scriptural proof and after awhile I actually started reading the whole post. With the 666 thread, I actually read the whole book of Revelations.

I don't know though. About the trinity. Right now I don't believe Yeshua is God like you do. I believe Jesus is the same as God. It bugs me how people worship and praise Jesus. The first thing that comes to mind is Dueteronomy 5:7-9. That's what it seems like to me. I'm still finding everyhting out. So there are QUITE alot of things I know others won't agree with, and will make it known with scriptural proof. which is what I love by the way because it teaches me the truth.

Yes, I never stated myself as atheist but I sure didn't believe in Y H V H, I guess it was just part of the phase I was going through, I even cut my wrist. I now see how retarded it was, unlike everyone else who did it my scars have stuck with me and I look at them and I love them, because it reminds me sometimes we don't need to be in control of our actions, a higher power who knows best does. Hmm, I really do need to do an introduction because I'm explaining myself here instead, not needed.

[Jonatan]

It is good Jeordin that you are zealous for our Lord, who is El-Kanna, Jealous God, visiting iniquities upon the third and fourth generations. What type of "Christianity" do you know and got used to? Maybe this is the whole problem. If there are images of "Jesus" in churches desired from people to be worshipped or even as an inspiration or a symbol that "should help with relationship with God" that is not true Jesus, not true Yeshua. Yeshua would never permit himself to be displayed. Enough to mention Exodus 20:3-6, Deuteronomy 5:7-10 or 4:15-19 - pay attention.
I believe that's Spirit of Antichrist in the churches, being displayed in statues or images. Idolatry, plain and simple. PERIOD.
However Yeshua is also worthy of being worshipped. There's not a problem in having the Father and Yeshua as well as one God together (such as type - they are ONE God). Enough to mention Thomas didymus in John 20:27-28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Or Revelation - it says the Lamb is worthy of our thanksgiving, glory, honor etc.
He is our God and the Father is His God. And when all things are gathered and put under his feet, He'll submit it all to Father.

David called Yeshua, Messiah his (David's) God.
These were things which were also too tough for rabbis in Yeshua's times.

42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].
(Matthew 22:42-46)

Very tough questions was that, wasn't it? Even for Rabbis, the ones who were expected to be the most wise in those times. Yeshua is not Father himself, but He is God, Son of Father YHVH in truth.

Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(Psalms 47:6-7)

or Psalms 110, the first verse
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool....

These are things what Rav Shaul (Paul) mentions in Letter to Hebrews. In overview he explains in the letter Who is Yeshua. Comparing with angels, with Moses, with Melchisedek, with the highest priest in OT - Aaronic priest, he shows that Yeshua is above that all.

[pioneer]

These are things what Rav Shaul (Paul) mentions in Letter to Hebrews. In overview he explains in the letter Who is Yeshua. Comparing with angels, with Moses, with Melchisedek, with the highest priest in OT - Aaronic priest, he shows that Yeshua is above that all.

Where do you get that Sha'ul wrote Hebrews, no one else has been able positively identify him as the writer.
He was a Hebrew with sufficeint knowledge to have written it, but no positive ID.

jeordin, I echo all the commentaries on your coming out of atheism.
And acknowledge how tough it is to be a teenager in the world today esspecially with out a firm Godly foundation. May Y H V H greatly bless you.
Shalom

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 6, 2009 8:58:32 GMT -5 Jonatan said:

It is good Jeordin that you are zealous for our Lord, who is El-Kanna, Jealous God, visiting iniquities upon the third and fourth generations. What type of "Christianity" do you know and got used to? Maybe this is the whole problem. If there are images of "Jesus" in churches desired from people to be worshipped or even as an inspiration or a symbol that "should help with relationship with God" that is not true Jesus, not true Yeshua. Yeshua would never permit himself to be displayed. Enough to mention Exodus 20:3-6, Deuteronomy 5:7-10 or 4:15-19 - pay attention.
I believe that's Spirit of Antichrist in the churches, being displayed in statues or images. Idolatry, plain and simple. PERIOD.
However Yeshua is also worthy of being worshipped. There's not a problem in having the Father and Yeshua as well as one God together (such as type - they are ONE God). Enough to mention Thomas didymus in John 20:27-28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Or Revelation - it says the Lamb is worthy of our thanksgiving, glory, honor etc.
He is our God and the Father is His God. And when all things are gathered and put under his feet, He'll submit it all to Father.

David called Yeshua, Messiah his (David's) God.
These were things which were also too tough for rabbis in Yeshua's times.

42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].
(Matthew 22:42-46)

Very tough questions was that, wasn't it? Even for Rabbis, the ones who were expected to be the most wise in those times. Yeshua is not Father himself, but He is God, Son of Father YHVH in truth.

Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(Psalms 47:6-7)

or Psalms 110, the first verse
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool....

These are things what Rav Shaul (Paul) mentions in Letter to Hebrews. In overview he explains in the letter Who is Yeshua. Comparing with angels, with Moses, with Melchisedek, with the highest priest in OT - Aaronic priest, he shows that Yeshua is above that all.

If I understand you correctly, you are here affirming Yeshua's full deity.

If that is the case, good! Then you and I believe the same way. I thought I was the only one on these boards to hold to this viewpoint.

Now the debate is more even.

[pioneer]

Apr 6, 2009 11:04:28 GMT -5 Never Looking Back said:

Apr 6, 2009 8:58:32 GMT -5 Jonatan said:

It is good Jeordin that you are zealous for our Lord, who is El-Kanna, Jealous God, visiting iniquities upon the third and fourth generations. What type of "Christianity" do you know and got used to? Maybe this is the whole problem. If there are images of "Jesus" in churches desired from people to be worshipped or even as an inspiration or a symbol that "should help with relationship with God" that is not true Jesus, not true Yeshua. Yeshua would never permit himself to be displayed. Enough to mention Exodus 20:3-6, Deuteronomy 5:7-10 or 4:15-19 - pay attention.
I believe that's Spirit of Antichrist in the churches, being displayed in statues or images. Idolatry, plain and simple. PERIOD.
However Yeshua is also worthy of being worshipped. There's not a problem in having the Father and Yeshua as well as one God together (such as type - they are ONE God). Enough to mention Thomas didymus in John 20:27-28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Or Revelation - it says the Lamb is worthy of our thanksgiving, glory, honor etc.
He is our God and the Father is His God. And when all things are gathered and put under his feet, He'll submit it all to Father.

David called Yeshua, Messiah his (David's) God.
These were things which were also too tough for rabbis in Yeshua's times.

42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].
(Matthew 22:42-46)

Very tough questions was that, wasn't it? Even for Rabbis, the ones who were expected to be the most wise in those times. Yeshua is not Father himself, but He is God, Son of Father YHVH in truth.

Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(Psalms 47:6-7)

or Psalms 110, the first verse
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool....

These are things what Rav Shaul (Paul) mentions in Letter to Hebrews. In overview he explains in the letter Who is Yeshua. Comparing with angels, with Moses, with Melchisedek, with the highest priest in OT - Aaronic priest, he shows that Yeshua is above that all.

If I understand you correctly, you are here affirming Yeshua's full deity.

If that is the case, good! Then you and I believe the same way. I thought I was the only one on these boards to hold to this viewpoint.

Now the debate is more even.

Like 13 to 1 in the b'rt hadashah.
Son of God= 13 - Angel, Blind man, Yeshua, satan, demons, Phillip, John, Martha, Nathanael, Sha'ul, writer of Hebrews, High Priest.
My Lord and my God=1 mouth of one man

I favor the 13.
On the testamony of two or three witnesses is a thing established.

Go on and be decieved by the testamony of one man.
Or take the word of God's word for it and the other unbiased and sometimes hostile witnesses.
OBTW, I forgot to add the son of the Most High and other similar titles given in the NT. Plus the account of Daniel.
Shalom

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 6, 2009 13:00:50 GMT -5 pioneer said:

Like 13 to 1 in the b'rt hadashah.
Son of God= 13 - Angel, Blind man, Yeshua, satan, demons, Phillip, John, Martha, Nathanael, Sha'ul, writer of Hebrews, High Priest.
My Lord and my God=1 mouth of one man

I favor the 13.
On the testamony of two or three witnesses is a thing established.

Go on and be decieved by the testamony of one man.
Or take the word of God's word for it and the other unbiased and sometimes hostile witnesses.
OBTW, I forgot to add the son of the Most High and other similar titles given in the NT. Plus the account of Daniel.
Shalom

Yeshua did not tell him not to call Him "my Lord and my God." Rather, His reaction to that comment only seems to affirm what was said of Him. Plus, He accepted worship from more than one person. He never told anyone not to worship Him.

While this does not by itself prove Yeshua's deity, I would assume that if Yeshua were not YHVH, He would have corrected them and not accepted anyone's worship.

Furthermore, Yeshua's relationship to the Father is unique. It is unlike any other relationship that the Father has had with any other person. The manner in which "Son of God" is used of Yeshua is unique to Him. There may have been other people who were labeled "son of God," but the way that it was used when referring to Yeshua was different. Those around Yeshua understood that when Yeshua claimed that title for Himself that He was saying He was equal with the Father. In other words, they saw the phrase as a claim of deity by Yeshua. They were going to kill Him for blasphemy because of it.

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 2, 2009 9:30:55 GMT -5 @walt said:

Yes, TRUE.

But why is it sooooo important to be called a "christian"?

Yahweh didn't name or call His "christians" - the lost world did.
Why does one who claims to be of Messiah want to be identified by the lost world?

Since I don't seek to be called or identified as a "christian" - I don't have to accept the manmade doctrine of the trinity - I'm free to believe and accept what Elohim proclaims about Himself in Scripture.

At minimum, the trinity is man's feble attempt to define and contain the character and nature of Yahweh and put it into a neat manmade box - but He doesn't fit in that box.

At worst it's a false doctrine constructed by satan to deceive, mislead, and entrap those seeking to Yada (to KNOW in a relational sense) Yahweh Elohim.

Since the trinity doctrine is a fruit of the rcc - I side closer with the later.

So, let me get this straight -- do some messianic Jews deny the Trinity because it would make them in line with Christian orthodoxy (and thus make them theologically Christian), and they do not want to be Christian?

Is the only reason that people are attempting to find other explanations so that they can avoid falling into the category of Christian?

Are all things deemed Christian so disgusting to you that you want to throw out anything that has anything to do with Christianity, theology or otherwise?

[John]

no. that is not our reasoning.

well, it may be some. but not mine.

let the person who said this explain to you what he/she meant.

[John]

The manner in which "Son of God" is used of Yeshua is unique to Him. There may have been other people who were labeled "son of God," but the way that it was used when referring to Yeshua was different. Those around Yeshua understood that when Yeshua claimed that title for Himself that He was saying He was equal with the Father. In other words, they saw the phrase as a claim of deity by Yeshua. They were going to kill Him for blasphemy because of it.

No i am sorry, but ithnk you are mistaken as to their motives. they claimed it was blashphemy, but that was it (maybe we have a different idea of what blasphemy is). They never saw it as Yeshua claiming he was YHVH.

and if they did... are humans not fallible and able o misinterpret things?

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 6, 2009 14:35:07 GMT -5 John said:

No i am sorry, but ithnk you are mistaken as to their motives. they claimed it was blashphemy, but that was it (maybe we have a different idea of what blasphemy is). They never saw it as Yeshua claiming he was YHVH.

and if they did... are humans not fallible and able o misinterpret things?

Yeshua did not say that their interpretation was wrong. Once again, His answer only confirmed what He was claiming (His identity as YHVH). The answer that He gave made them want to kill Him all the more.

[itiswritten]

Apr 6, 2009 14:00:03 GMT -5 Never Looking Back said:

Yeshua did not tell him not to call Him "my Lord and my God." Rather, His reaction to that comment only seems to affirm what was said of Him. Plus, He accepted worship from more than one person. He never told anyone not to worship Him.

While this does not by itself prove Yeshua's deity, I would assume that if Yeshua were not YHVH, He would have corrected them and not accepted anyone's worship.

What passage are you referring to that says "my Lord and my God?"
From what I have read thus far, this is an argument from silence." For example: Since Paul did not make a statement denying that he had red hair, it must mean that his hair was red.

Apr 6, 2009 14:00:03 GMT -5 Never Looking Back said:

Furthermore, Yeshua's relationship to the Father is unique. It is unlike any other relationship that the Father has had with any other person. The manner in which "Son of God" is used of Yeshua is unique to Him. There may have been other people who were labeled "son of God," but the way that it was used when referring to Yeshua was different. Those around Yeshua understood that when Yeshua claimed that title for Himself that He was saying He was equal with the Father. In other words, they saw the phrase as a claim of deity by Yeshua. They were going to kill Him for blasphemy because of it.

Where did he claim to be equal with the Father?

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Does one pray to someone who is equal to themselves? Does one submit their will to someone who is equal? We've had this discussion a lot. Maybe I will post my list of questions that show the contrast.