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Post by John on May 15, 2009 13:47:59 GMT -5
this came up on another thread... will there be one war or two btwn gog and magog... or as jonatan said, gog FROM magog and THEN gog AND magog.
discuss the theories here.
shalom- john
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Post by itiswritten on May 15, 2009 23:45:39 GMT -5
Are there any verses that hint at two Gog/Magog invasions? If we are just relying upon scripture it seems that the only invasion is after the thousand years. However a comparison of Rev 19 and 20 I suppose could minorly hint at the possiblity unless those two chapters are describing at times the same events.
However, I would hardly describe the current nation of Israel as dwelling safely, at rest or without walls, gates and bars. The picture painted in Ezekiel is one of complete peace and unconcern with being attacked not one of fear of constant terror attacks like it is today.
Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
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Notice these similarites:
Ezekiel 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [/b][/u]
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Also notice the similarites with the birds being called to a great supper to feast upon men in Rev and Eze:
Ezikiel 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
EzeKiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on May 16, 2009 3:14:55 GMT -5
Yes, I have heard yet before that theory that chief prince of Gog and Magog should be the Beast (or Antichrist). And I recognize there are similarities in the verses saying the same - that they shall be given to feathered fowls, birds and other beasts as food for them. Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.and Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. I know many biblical teachers connect Gog to Antichrist. But that's thing I cannot agree. Why? Because there are undeniable differences between Gog from Magog (in Ezekiel) and Antichrist - the Beast. Gog from Magog will not even merely touch Israel with destruction, while Antichrist shall provide horrible things among Israel - He'll penetrate into leadership of Israel, set his abominable idol into the new - 3rd Temple, and shall persecute the Jews in the land. That's why Yeshua says to all in Judea that if they see the abomination (idol) in the place where it shouldn't be, let them IMMEDIATELY escape to the mountains - and out of the city, all who are there, cos in the city - there'll be the epicenter of deceit and condemnation. So, Israel will suffer in times of Antichrist, the same way as she suffered in times of Antioch Epifanes ( Epimanes  , cos Antioch - in the past is the prototype of Antichrist for eschatological times. About Gog FROM Magog - (it's Ezekiel 38 and 39), we are told about many nations that shall come into Israel to spoil
Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? Now, there is main goal for Gog FROM Magog - it is to steal and to take by force the prosperity of Israel. He shall be evil minded, possibly envious for all the Israel's blessing and prosperity (as we read in verse 10) that Israel shall have in the last times, when everyone of Sons of Israel is gathered to their promised land - following verses 11 and 12. What's his (and their - the nations' accompanied by Gog) end? Ezekiel 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.Now, do you see this? At THE SAME TIME AS GOG ENTERS THE LAND OF ISRAEL, Lord's fury pours out - immediately! And it follows... Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.Did Gog made any casualties? - it seems he didn't even give Israel a scratch. Worse adversary shall be the Antichrist together with his 10 horns. Now, about differences between Gog FROM Magog (Ezekiel 38 and 39) and Gog AND Magog in Revelation 20. Gog FROM Magog:
Ezekiel 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. his end differs from the end of the other Gog army - in Revelation 20 - Gog AND Magog:Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. See how they were easily blown down just by one fire from the God, out if heaven. In this comparison, Gog FROM Magog in Ezekiel and his band are afflicted by multiple plagues. These Gog AND Magog armies are from all the four corners of the earth, while Gog FROM Magog is from the north and shall be accompanied only by Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer and his bands(Eze.38:6), + house of Togarmah (said to be the Turkey) Gog FROM Magog could be the Antichrist IN ONE CASE ONLY - if Gog rise from dead in Israel, if he come out of Abyssos to kill the Two Olives (as it's in Rev.11) - then maybe yes. If Ezekiel is written chronologicaly, especially from chapter 37 to 48, the end, it gives a nice chronological order : -1. first, all Sons of Israel must be gathered to their promised land - Ezekiel 37-2. then, Gog FROM Magog makes a vain attempt to loot Israel - Ezekiel 38,39-3. then, in chapter 40 to 48 we are told about new, rebuilt Israel with new temple where the continual sacrifice shall be renewed -4. then, when temple is built, there's time for Two Olives and then they are defeated by Antichrist, that evil one who shall sit in the temple deceiving people, claiming he is God - (2. Thessalonians Chapter 2). He may sit there only when the new temple is built, as well as he can stop 'zevach tamid' - continual sacrifice only when it has been renewed. -5. Antichrist's end in the lake of fire, 1000yrs kingdom -6. Gog AND Magog attack Israel from all the 4 corners in the earth, and are - blown down by Lord's fire. -7. Eternity |
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Post by itiswritten on May 16, 2009 10:25:08 GMT -5
You may have misunderstood me Jonatan. I was bringing into question if the current nation of Israel fits the description of a people dwelling safely and rest as well as being a land without walls, gates and bars.
Secondly, since the Gog/Magog discussed in Revelation is clearly after the thousand years, I question what evidence is there for this idea of an imminent Gog/Magog invasion of the land of Israel. I realize that has been the mainstream Christian teaching for a while, but I have never seen hard evidence presented to support this theory.
I was not implying that Gog/Magog is antichrist. The eschatological depiction of "antichrist" deviates greatly from the Biblical descriptions of the concept of "antichrist." There is nothing scriptural that I have found that ties "antichrist" to some future world ruler, although it is widely accepted.
1 John 2:18-19
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
There is nothing in these descriptions tying this concept to "the beast" or some future world leader. The terms beast and antichrist are never used interchangably such as they are by most prophecy teachers. Neither have I seen logical support for tying verses in Daniel to the word "antichrist."
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on May 18, 2009 4:33:29 GMT -5
Particularly, EVERY ungodly king showing himself as a God resemble the Antichrist. On the other hand, it's true that we can say about spirit of 'antichrist' only after Christ.
But anyway, that spirit, who is now revealed as spirit of Antichrist, worked in the past even before Yeshua became flesh - in kings that called themselves Gods, and all creators of false religions.
Mankind before Abraham was, remember (however distorted, but remember) the ancient prophecy about Mashiach as the Seed of man that should come (Genesis 3:15). And many people misused that - first of them was possibly Nimrod and his wife. Because of them, babylonian spirit has been spreaded into every culture of the earth, and every false religion reflect that spirit.
It was Satan and fallen angels who knew about the plan the Seed would come. Satan knows that people are seeking the Hero, Savior, someone who manage to redeem humanity. And that's the aim of Satan - that's where he can operate masterfully - so that there exist the spirit of Anti-Messiah.
It is all right. I know, I know. Also, there isn't written in Revelation about the rapture, but is shown in the 7th trumpet. Scripture just must be completed as a puzzle, some things aren't that sound for everyone - such as about the rapture in 7th trumpet. It looks like some center pieces of puzzle - you don't know where exactly to put it, unless you have the corners and the border pieces laid. But by every advance, it fits together more and more - so we must do with Bible.
The rapture in Revelation and its time period is based on more than three witnesses (verses).
There is not important one person through whom the book has been written. When it's more times, it gives it more merit. Even two verses saying the same in another place by one author should be considered two witnesses.
Look on Genesis 41 - the dream of Pharaoh - and Joseph's interpretation, led by Holy Spirit.
Look into verse 32: And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
Look, why the Beast should NOT be the Antichrist? Yeshua forewarned us from coming of false Messiah(s). If we look into eschatological chapters of gospels (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), that "if anyone says you in those days - there He is! (in the desert or in the chambers)" must say about kind of the false Messiah coming as Ben David, coming in POWER - in reign as a king.
Yeshua will reign one day as a king - KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS as well. If we ask whether Antichrist shall be the Beast - world's dictator with great political, economical, spiritual power, then it's necessary YES! Antichrist is not only a spirit who is now in the world, but he will show himself one day, before the return of Yeshua. There are many little 'antichrists' - possibly not having such political influence, not being kings, nor presidents, but having his spirit, but there's one 'Antichrist', who is the origin and prince of them all (- and remember, he will not be a mere man, but partially fallen angel or something else, same way as Yeshua is also Son of God), same as we have the spirit of Christ and He is our master.
Concerning Gog and Magog, I consider it two different events in Ezekiel and in Revelation, because the signs of each are not equal and both events have different following results.
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Post by John on May 18, 2009 14:21:45 GMT -5
there is something calle the law of prophetic perspective. the law basically states that although in prophecy a vision may be written so that one event happens directly after the other, however, that does not mean that something cant happen in between. it is likened to a person who sees the top of the mountains, but not what is in the valleys between it. or, if your in exekiels place, you can see the valley but not hte top of the mountain!
shalom- john
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anochria
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Post by anochria on May 18, 2009 19:08:46 GMT -5
OK, so here's my take.
As I think has been reinforced in the above posts (whether intended or not), there's no convincing reason to suppose that there will be two specific "Gog and Magog" events. And in Rev. 20 it's pretty clear that the author is telling us parenthetically that Ezekiel 38 and 39 point to this event at the end of the Millenium.
I had a lot of agreement with itiswritten. He says that Ezekiel 38 and 39 do not describe Israel as it is nowadays. I'd agree that that is good evidence against the typical pre-millenial understanding of the Gog and Magog event. However, as someone who believes we are currently in the Millenial Kingdom, let me give an alternate explanation of Rev. 20:7-9:
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.
What is the "camp of God's people, the city he loves". I don't think it is the land of Israel or the physical city of Jerusalem. I think, based on the substantial re-working and spiritualizing of those terms throughout the New Testament that John here is speaking of the Church.
And the true Church is an unwalled kingdom of peace.
So, how I interpret this passage is that at the end of the current millenial reign of Yeshua, the binding of satan that Jesus effected at his first coming will be undone temporarily. Satan will once again deceive the nations on a grand scale and intense opposition will be mounted against God's people- "the Jerusalem that is above". But he will be defeated by the final coming of Yeshua.
It may be that we are living in those times now (the time of satan's increased deception and opposition to the church). I don't know, but I definitely see this passage as primarily referring to spiritual Jerusalem, not physical Jerusalem.
However, that doesn't preclude physical Jerusalem from playing a part in the events of the story either. Who knows? But I think the primary reference here is to the Church.
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Post by itiswritten on May 18, 2009 20:25:23 GMT -5
Anochria, I think that you have made some very good points. I don't agree with everything you wrote of course, but some interesting thoughts.
I'm curious what you all think of the verse below.
Ezekiel 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
What prophets prophesied regarding Gog/Magog and where is it recorded? Obviously it must be in veiled and symbolic language because Ezekiel and John are the only ones that mention this battle in a way that clearly identifies it as far as I know.
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anochria
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Post by anochria on May 18, 2009 22:57:15 GMT -5
well, one might be tempted to say Zech. 12, but that was written after Ezekiel.
What do you think?
Isaiah 24 shares some parallels with Rev. 20, but not really anything specifically about a "gog and magog" type enemy.
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Post by John on May 19, 2009 5:49:04 GMT -5
some think that armegeddon will be the same as the battle of gog and magog.
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anochria
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Post by anochria on May 19, 2009 15:30:50 GMT -5
I find it hard to see how Rev. 19 and 20 could be seen as anything other than sequential.
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on May 20, 2009 7:11:03 GMT -5
OK, so here's my take. As I think has been reinforced in the above posts (whether intended or not), there's no convincing reason to suppose that there will be two specific "Gog and Magog" events. And in Rev. 20 it's pretty clear that the author is telling us parenthetically that Ezekiel 38 and 39 point to this event at the end of the Millenium. I had a lot of agreement with itiswritten. He says that Ezekiel 38 and 39 do not describe Israel as it is nowadays. I'd agree that that is good evidence against the typical pre-millenial understanding of the Gog and Magog event. However, as someone who believes we are currently in the Millenial Kingdom, let me give an alternate explanation of Rev. 20:7-9: 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. What is the "camp of God's people, the city he loves". I don't think it is the land of Israel or the physical city of Jerusalem. I think, based on the substantial re-working and spiritualizing of those terms throughout the New Testament that John here is speaking of the Church. And the true Church is an unwalled kingdom of peace. So, how I interpret this passage is that at the end of the current millenial reign of Yeshua, the binding of satan that Jesus effected at his first coming will be undone temporarily. Satan will once again deceive the nations on a grand scale and intense opposition will be mounted against God's people- "the Jerusalem that is above". But he will be defeated by the final coming of Yeshua. It may be that we are living in those times now (the time of satan's increased deception and opposition to the church). I don't know, but I definitely see this passage as primarily referring to spiritual Jerusalem, not physical Jerusalem. However, that doesn't preclude physical Jerusalem from playing a part in the events of the story either. Who knows? But I think the primary reference here is to the Church. Well, I see here some kind of Replacement theology - let us rather crop it down! When People of Israel crossed the Red Sea, they crossed it LITERALLY! Beware of allegorizing. I agree there may be two levels of understanding, but the antichrist thing in Replacement theology is that it abolishes one and selects the other as the only one, stealing the old, literal idea from its fundament. Israel CANNOT be the Church!!! Beware of this greatly! This way, also Vatican was proclaimed by her heretics as 'New Jerusalem' or 'Millenial kingdom of God' too, saying that OT prophecies no longer refer to literal Israel - SURELY THEY DO! That kind of theology is from Satan, spirit of Antichrist, because it steals good and turns it into evil - mathematicaly, it steals the same value and then it gives it minus absolute value. Same as Antichrist shall abolish the sacrifices and replace it by his abomination(s). Same as Catholic 'eucharistia' is antichrist replacement (or equivalent) to OT continual atonement for sins. I can believe that Gog and Magog attack in Revelation may be against Church of Yeshua, but the one in Ezekiel by no means! Israel is Israel and Church is Church. - NOT INTERCHANGEABLE! This is why allegorical interpretation of the Bible is heresy. Israel doesn't have to become Church to be saved. About this: Well, that lead us to think Gog and Magog is the same as the Beast - NO WAY!!! As we read carefully Revelation (and it is chronological, even if the OT prophets maybe aren't), Gog and Magog is in chapter 20, there is their end and Satan's end, who is thrown in the lake of fire where the Beast and the False prophet already have been! 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:9-10)Please, when you read Revelation, proceed step-by-step, it cannot be interpreted correctly unchronological. If it's one event, ok. But we need to find out if the chapters of Ezekiel 37-48 are chronological or not. In case they aren't, it may be one event. In case it is chronological, then Gog and Magog events must be two, because the temple and Jerusalem in Ezekiel 40-48 DO NOT refer to the New Heaven and the New Earth and the New Jerusalem. As you may read in Revelation 21 and 22, in the new world, there will not be temple anymore, because: Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Ezekiel 40-48 must occur before Gog and Magog in Revelation 20 at the end of the Millenial kingdom. After Gog and Magog in Rev.20, this Heaven and this Earth will pass away, and there'll be New Jerusalem, New Heaven and New Earth. |
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anochria
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Post by anochria on May 27, 2009 23:08:23 GMT -5
jonatan wrote: I'd like to invite you to read an article I wrote on this subject and post your thoughts. John has done so a bit already as well. Here's the link: Israel and the ChurchAlso, since you're interested in eschatology, here's a link to my eschatology sub-forum which you may find of benefit if only for the fact that it presents a much different perspective on eschatology than you currently have. Iron sharpens iron, right? Aletheia Eschatology Sub-Forum |
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Post by John on May 29, 2009 14:23:01 GMT -5
Yisrael and the church are two distinct things.
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anochria
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Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
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Post by anochria on May 31, 2009 19:42:54 GMT -5
"Spiritual Israel"= Church is my point
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Post by John on May 31, 2009 20:10:43 GMT -5
NO! spiritual Yisrael is the remnant within Yisrael. not all Yisrael is Yisrael meaining not all Jews are completed jew- spiritual and literal.
NO NO NO.
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anochria
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Post by anochria on Jun 2, 2009 14:40:53 GMT -5
Instead of NO NO NO NO*, how about responding to the Scriptures and logic I'm using on the link I posted with your own logic from the Scriptures? * extra NOs don't give your argument any more force  |
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Post by John on Jun 2, 2009 17:31:46 GMT -5
i dont think this is the place to do it- thats why. lol. but i will. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. thats all i can say here. i will provide another spot to put it.
and i am going to make an interesting thread on cremation so respond to that later.
shalom- john
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Jun 3, 2009 7:16:24 GMT -5
Many evangelicals (and I am afraid that your group, Anochria, is part of it too) have to repent and turn away from heretical catholic legacy (because Luther started it, but has left unfinished), which emphasize Replacement Theology, implying Israel would have to become part of the Church to be saved. NO WAY!
This is the thing RCC was founded on what bringeth her eternal accursement. But what shall I say to those who do not believe prophecies? Word is, that just plainly and literally - let us not philosophize and allegorize it, otherwise we may say also that Yeshua wasn't literally crucified.
Revelation 17 and 18 says about the Great Babylon - Rome or Vatican, sitting on 7 heads (7 hills), the harlot is the city that reigneth over all kingdoms of the earth (since middle-ages and even earlier), it has shed blood of true followers of Yeshua, showing it's 'beautiful golden chalice' to the world, while inside it there's nothing else than her filth and blood of our brothers. IT IS VERY INTERESTING why have RCC been using golden cup in eucharistia. Notice that this prophecy (and also in Jeremiah) was written before RCC started. Don't you see that as a partially prophecy?
We, who are from lutherans and evangelicals (I was too some kind of evangelical), have to repent from some things and circumcise us from the legacy of anti-semitic traditional churches, namely RCC. Those who are in RCC have no option than to go out from the Babylon, lest they are entangled again by it, leading them to condemnation for the heresies and sins that RCC is full of. Now I must switch to offensive mode, everyone who wants to walk in truth must do likewise.
Idolatry (which is spiritual fornication), persecuting of true christians, other abominations, church in illict love with secular powers using their authority for her own anti-biblical practices. Now, if RCC is not the final Great Babylon in Revelation 17, it is at least its prototype - and everything written in Rev.17 and 18 fits on RCC. Chapter 18 is, however, future.
Do you know why CC in some time prohibited having the Bible at penalties of death? Fearing that people find prophecies saying about RCC how greatly does it fit. What would happen to Luther and Calvin and Wycliff and others if they didn't take care? And some of them were treated the way that they were burned to death as "heretics".
It was Augustin, Hieronymus and other CC true heretics who developed allegorical interpretation of the Word in order to avoid truth and righteous judgement and to establish their own truth according to power of RCC, its traditions and ecumenism with paganry. In this matter I fully understand and share the messianic view of "christianity".
Sh'lom
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Post by John on Jun 3, 2009 14:40:29 GMT -5
jonotan, i dont think that Yisrael can be saved other than the means shaul lays out.
there is ONE WAY of the gospel. is there a jewish way and a non-jewish way? nay! there is one way of Yah.
but i think that Yisrael and the church are two distinct things. the church is part of the remnant Yisrael that is WITHIN the Yisrael of the flesh. they are graffed into the nation of Yisreael, but are still wild branches. they follow the same rules of Torah to seperate Yisrael, but they are still gentiles, although they are Yisrael. we all follow the same gospel.
we can discuss it at another thread, however. i will put it under a new board i am going to set up.
shalom- john
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, cos Antioch - in the past is the prototype of Antichrist for eschatological times.
