Hi, I am Jonathan

[Jonatan]

Shalom all!

I'd like to introduce myself. As you know, I am Jonathan - that's not my nick. I feel I should have done it earlier, but I hadn't much time at all. My posting here looks as a hasty action - when I've got some time to get into i-net, I use it for posting here.

So, how could I describe myself, in presence? (Because I have my testimony how I became true believer in Yeshua below in the 'Bonding' cathegory - and that's rather past)

I'm just a guy of 21, living in the middle Europe - Slovakia (that's near Hungary), in the capital, 'Bratislava'.
I study on pedagogical university with detachment - English language(linguistics & this kind of stuff) + literature, in combination with History.

I visit a pentecostal assembly 'Christian Fellowship Grace' - that's how could I translate it literaly into english, lol.
www.milost.sk

Well, I consider myself Christian Zionist (or Messianic Zionist - if I may call myself like this as a gentile believer) and I have great interests in learning hebrew, even spread learning hebrew - I'd like to teach other brothers / sisters what I know.
Also I plan a project to return to hebraic roots - it's very important thing - find as much believers as possible, eager to learn hebrew and greek - and focus them into original languages of the Scripture.
Also, I'd like to support Israel while I am on the earth by my possibilities - spiritually, politically (if possible), economically - in order to bless Yisrael. ('Everyone who bless you shall be blessed and everyone who curse you shall be accursed')

Concerning other spiritual goals - I'll help my congregation to spread gospel as much as possible for those who aren't saved and need to accept Yeshua into their hearts.
And of course - interpreting Word of God - my domain and aim where I what I want to study most: prophecies and eschatology, concerning both Israel and the world in general.

My congregation is connected also with another great pentecostal in Hungary - Hit Gyulekezette (Faith Church)
www.hit.hu

There I plan to study theology in Szent Pal Academy (Academy of St.Paul) when I finish pedagogical university.

May Lord Adonai bless you,
Sh'lom!

[John]

very interesting... i never knew that you were so much involved in the bible.

and you are a messianic... even if you are gentile. you are just not a mesianic jew- you are a messianic gentiles (goy[im]) . and i think that all should follow judaism, just not everyone should be jews.

shalom

[anochria]

Jonathan,

My wife and I are both of Hungarian ancestry. Are you? Or are you a Slovak?

[Jonatan]

May 13, 2009 21:32:44 GMT -5 anochria said:

Jonathan,

My wife and I are both of Hungarian ancestry. Are you? Or are you a Slovak?

I am a Slovak. Nice to meet you, anochria. Maybe you may think Slovaks are typical for their hatred against Hungarians, but that's not a custom of true christians/messianics.
We love Hungarians, and there are many God's people among you, and annointed.
Do you know Sandor Nemeth for example, the pastor (or even apostle, as I have heard) of Hit Gyulekezette?

[Jonatan]

May 13, 2009 17:10:58 GMT -5 John said:

very interesting... i never knew that you were so much involved in the bible.

and you are a messianic... even if you are gentile. you are just not a mesianic jew- you are a messianic gentiles (goy[im]) . and i think that all should follow judaism, just not everyone should be jews.

shalom

I start to like it very much! Hallelujah!!! We already had preaching about the Torah - how much ang gravely IT IS IMPORTANT. Not only 10 commands - but 613 commandments - these are more detailed than the 10 commandments in Exodus 20.
You know, christians have tendency to deny the importance of whole Torah and focus maximally on the 10 commandments.
We shall not be 'Lawless christians'

There are however things we from goyim cannot accomplish - even Israel in current state cannot - if we say about temple orders about sacrifices and other.
I think all the things we have to keep, except of that which has been modified in Brit Chadasha - concerning kosher food only, shabbat on exact date or festivals (Collosians 2:16-17) - that are Moral-Spiritual commandments.

Some commandments are impossible to fill literally - we cannot make frankinscence, which only Levites were ordered to make, burnt offerings and other animal sacrifice (where?), but I believe in heart - it is possible - we must fill it spiritually. In OT it was a 'shadow of things to come'. We must fill it now, but by NT methods. Can it be return to judaism?
What do you say?

[John]

i think that rabbinic judaism is an offshoot of the judaism of YHVH, not messianic judaism and offshoot of rabbinic judaism.

also, i think the whole of the law should be followed. there are many more than 613 mitzvot, (although 613 is a general allusion to the mizvot) and some men cannot do because they are for women, some gentiles cannot do, some handmaids cannot do, some slaves cannot do, some levites cannot do, etc, etc etc. even when the theocratic state of Yisrael exists again, and when the temple is rebuilt there will be commands that we cannot follow... but we can follow the whole of Torah by love.

and just as oral law is an exposition on the 613 mitzvot, so 603 of the 613 expound on YHVH's 'top ten''. and these top ten expound the 7 noachide, and the 7 noachide expound the 4/3 mitzvot the Yerushalayim council quoted, which in turn expound upon the two mitzvot 'love the lord they god' and 'love thy neighbor as thyself.' finally, these two expound upon the ultimate mitzvot, the goal of Torah, LOVE. as long as we love, we fulfill Torah even though we cannot do certain individual commandments. although, if we dont do certain mitzvot that we are able to do, than we are not living a life of love.

i think that the WHOLE torah is to be followed today. i dont think any of it has been modified by the mesianic cov't the only difference is that it is no longer the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. when there was the letter of the law, we could not follow it because we were trapped. but through Yeshua it becomes the spirit of the law written on the fleshy tables of the heart, and the yetzer hara is circumcised from our nature so we CAN follow the law and be perfect like the father (meaning 'all that we can be').

and since the Torah was made to guide the sinners, we being righteous have no need of Torah. this does not mean that it is abolished, but when we dont sin than we dont need sin sacrifices, or anything that is required only when we sin. we are being made perfect. we are going through the proces of circumcision right now, where the yetzer hara is removed, and replaced with the yetzer hatov. the yetzer hatov is given when we as sinners read Torah, and it is inscribed on our hearts progressively.

so many christians now still sin because they dont read the OT, but only the new... however, without the OT, the tables of the heart would exist, but no words can be indscribed upon it.

anyway, this is deep stuff, and i am sure that i shouldnt start now or i will get rebuked, but if you have questions ask me.

i will finish later when i see what needs clarification.

shalom- john

[anochria]

There are however things we from goyim cannot accomplish - even Israel in current state cannot - if we say about temple orders about sacrifices and other.

Hi Jonatan!

I'm unclear on your position. In light of the New Testament, do you think that animal sacrifices should still be made, if they were possible?

I think all the things we have to keep, except of that which has been modified in Brit Chadasha - concerning kosher food only, shabbat on exact date or festivals (Collosians 2:16-17) - that are Moral-Spiritual commandments.

Are you saying that the day on which the Sabbath is observed is optional in the New Covenant? And that gentile believers do not have to follow kosher?

I am a Slovak. Nice to meet you, anochria. Maybe you may think Slovaks are typical for their hatred against Hungarians, but that's not a custom of true christians/messianics.
We love Hungarians, and there are many God's people among you, and annointed.
Do you know Sandor Nemeth for example, the pastor (or even apostle, as I have heard) of Hit Gyulekezette?

No, I don't have any real stereotypes about Slovaks. The church I grew up in, the Apostolic Christian Church, originated in Europe (and still survives there).

I have not heard of Sandor Nemeth.

I am a third generation American born Hungarian, so I'm quite removed from the culture. But my wife is a second-generation and speaks Hungarian well.



[NOTE FROM JOHN: no double posting please. see the rule.]

[Jonatan]

Hi Jonatan!

I'm unclear on your position. In light of the New Testament, do you think that animal sacrifices should still be made, if they were possible?

Well, for the orthodox Jews - definitely yes. It's scriptural, biblical. In Ezekiel we are told about temple that hasn't been built yet. There are mentions about offerings - continual, burnt and other - the same as it is in the Levitical book.

It were not a good news, it was terrible when the second temple was destroyed - and not the thing that Lord would be pleased in, even if it was, however, predestined and it had to come (and then, all the people of Israel were taken captives into second Babylon - or into all nations, taken captives by the Romans, until 1948 when the prophecies about returning into the promised land has begun).

About the temple and sacrifices, well, Apostle Shaul says the gentile believers in the letters that they don't have to fulfill these precepts( - see Galatians 3 and Collosians 2), which were only a 'shadow of things to come' and that the (Mosaic) Law was only a tutor for us, until faith has come.
It is different with Messianic Jews - they may have whole NT and OT commandments - even in times of Yeshua and apostles - 1st century AD until 70 AD, all Jews, including Messianics brought sacrifices into temple.

So, the heresy I have heard about that OT sacrifices would be denial of Yeshua's perfect sacrifice cannot stand.
Moreover, for orthodox Jews that have been hardened by Lord's will, until fullness of Gentiles has come to Yeshua (as Paul states in Romans). They need at least OT. Continual sacrifices, Yom Kippur and other - without blood spilled for sins, there's no remission (Hebrews 9:22). Same as OT patriarchs and those it OT did, so should the orthodox Jews, yet without Messiah, have the sacrifices for atonement.

From 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, we know that 'the evil one' showing himself as 'God' will sit in the temple, and Daniel says about him that he shall make those restored OT offerings to cease and he shall replace it by his idol - that is - Antichrist (or the Beast).

Therefore, offerings cannot be bad, but woe to those who would be offended by it - I believe this may be the problem for those in the last days that many would be offended on the sacrifices and thus would considered whole Israel and Jewish people (only those who do and support it) evil for it. In truth, everyone with such thoughts would attempt to fight against them and thus we should not marvel why the evil world and (maybe liberal) apostate Jews would accept the Beast rather than Two Olives.
I don't think TRUE Yeshua is against sacrifices - that does Antichrist.

[John]

i am starting a thread about sacrifices.

[Jonatan]

[NOTE FROM JOHN: no double posting please. see the rule.]

Eh? I know, sorry! But these above were just two separate responses with another themes. If we update, modify our post, will it display as new and not as read?

[John]

i dont understand you r question

[Jonatan]

Sometimes I think that if someone update his/her post, it's not that easily noticed by readers, cos they may think: I have read it, what changes does it have now?
That's maybe if I double-post sometimes, cos I want to show that the new, double-posted post has some another theme, it's says about something different than the former post (by same writer).

[thevicarsson]

Are any of you europeans voting in the European elections. I personally am too young to vote, but my dad says he's probably going to vote for the Christian Party or Liberals(neither are the main two). Who you voting in your country, yes i knw theres different parties for different countries?

[Jonatan]

I didn't vote anyone this year even that I know I may. Just not much time for it. Plus, there were not good choices who to vote. Either there were such catholic groups who would stick our country together with Vatican and possibly enslave it by influence of papacy, then there were liberals, anti-christians who would have no problems with accepting unbiblical, immoral 'rights of homosexuals', or abortions.
Voting one or another would mean either to fall into sea or into flames.
Oh, how I pray that Lord make some of His true people rise and take position in government, who wouldn't cooperate with catholicism and such religious intolerance, but in other hand, would fully support biblical morale and concept of God's righteousness, without religious persecution.
Well, it's pity, but many people think that if someone is very moral, conservative christian, he must be catholic, and if some of them are of some protestant, evangelical branches, they allegedly are liberal also to homosexuality, abortions, pre-marriage sex and so on.
And this MUST CHANGE!!! Let no true evangelical christian be lawless, otherwise I don't marvel why messianics call all christians 'Lawless'. Such lawless christians are great shame.

[John]

i undersatnd your post jonatan. i will ask you from know on beofre modifying your posts. thank you for explining it to me.

shalom- john

PS- i am thinking bout adding a politics section here. when i do, you can post you pride and joy mat- at least thats what politics seems to be to you.

but for now, lets stay on topic.

[thevicarsson]

Sorry about going off topic John. *looks guilty*. Anyway i hope you do add a politics section. I wouldn't know how to thank you.

[LesEngege]

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