anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
|
Post by anochria on May 4, 2009 18:07:38 GMT -5
So, I'm going to transfer a discussion that itiswritten and I have started here for further dialogue.
Originally I had posted this passage from Romans:
Romans 14:4-8
4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
in support of my claim that Paul is saying that Sabbath observance is up to an individuals conscience in the New Covenant.
I also wrote:
As to Saturday/ Sunday, I think it's pretty clear that the Christians began to gather on Sundays very early on because the early Jewish Christians still kept the Sabbath on Saturday/ went to synagogue with their Jewish countrymen. Sunday was their day to just hang out with other followers of Yeshua.
When the gospel spread to Gentiles, naturally, the Gentiles began meeting on Sundays, which was the distinctly Christian gathering. It was also a fitting day to meet, as it was the day when Jesus rose.
Paul wrote the above passage in reference to the fact that some quarrels were breaking out over this.
It's not that I don't believe in Sabbath, it's just that I don't think there's a particular day that must be called Sabbath.
|
|
anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
|
Post by anochria on May 4, 2009 18:10:16 GMT -5
This was itiswritten's reply (his words are in red):
May 1, 2009, 1:17pm, anochria wrote:
Romans 14:4-8
4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
The above quote relates to two issues: Eating and days. First the discussion is speaking of vegitarianism vrs non-vegitarianism. It is not discussing clean vrs unclean meats. The next section is dealing with fast days. It was the custom at the time to fast twice a week. It was not a commandment, just a custom. Some thought that it should be treated as a commandment. We see an example of this in Luke where the Pharisee is described as making the statement below.
Luke 18:12
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Romans 14 is in no way saying that it is fine to eat unclean meats or not to. Neither is Paul saying that it is fine to keep the Sabbath if you want to or not to if you don't. It is a misapplication of that passage of scripture to use it as a proof text that it doesn't matter if Sabbath or Feast days are kept especially since there are so many clear texts testifying to the opposite.
May 1, 2009, 1:17pm, anochria wrote:
As to Saturday/ Sunday, I think it's pretty clear that the Christians began to gather on Sundays very early on because the early Jewish Christians still kept the Sabbath on Saturday/ went to synagogue with their Jewish countrymen.
I agree with you that the early believers kept Sabbath on Saturday and attended synagogue.
It is important to realize that the day begins in the evening after sundown and ends in the evening. It has long been a custom to congregate at the opening of the Shabbath (Sabbath) and at its close which would be Saturday evening by its modern name.
The first day of the week (Sunday) begins on what most people think of as Saturday evening. That is when the first day of the week begins. In all likelyhood in most cases the disciples and followers of Y'shua were closing the Sabbath on Saturday evening (First day of the week.) In light of the biblical and historical precident, it is logical that the meeting described below was a gathering at the end of the Sabbath (Saturday evening) that went until after midnight because of Paul' (Shual's) speech.
Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
May 1, 2009, 1:17pm, anochria wrote:
Sunday was their day to just hang out with other followers of Yeshua.
I am not aware of any biblical or historic evidence that confirms the above quote.
May 1, 2009, 1:17pm, anochria wrote:
When the gospel spread to Gentiles, naturally, the Gentiles began meeting on Sundays, which was the distinctly Christian gathering. It was also a fitting day to meet, as it was the day when Jesus rose.
It actually was natural that the Gentiles continued to go to synagogue on Shabbat. Again, there is nothing in scripture that indicates anything fitting about switching the Sabbath to Sunday for any reason. Notice that much of the initial commandments given to the Gentiles had to do with kosher. It is also clear that it was expected that Gentiles would be keeping the Sabbath and hearing the Torah portions read in the synagogues.
Acts 15:19-21 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
May 1, 2009, 1:17pm, anochria wrote:
Paul wrote the above passage in reference to the fact that some quarrels were breaking out over this.
I have already dealt with the passage and it is clear that is not what he is discussing. Shaul (Paul) told us to be followers of him even as he followed the Messiah. Both kept the Sabbath and the Feasts. We see several places where we see how important it was to Shaul to do both.
May 1, 2009, 1:17pm, anochria wrote:
It's not that I don't believe in Sabbath, it's just that I don't think there's a particular day that must be called Sabbath.
gotta go....
What we think doesn't matter. What does matter is what YHVH has said. He said that the seventh day is the Sabbath. This is mentioned repeatedly so that there is absolutely no confusion on the matter. It is even reiterated by the writer of Hebrews.
Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
|
|
anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
|
Post by anochria on May 4, 2009 18:11:16 GMT -5
My response:
I don't see how you can prove that only vegetarianism is in view here. How do you know that when Paul says one man eats everything, he's only really talking about everything kosher?
As to whether Paul is talking about just "fast days" when he's talking about "special days" here, I suppose it's possible though not provable. But that's why we need to check other scripture. And there is a place where Paul specifically mentions a diversity of beliefs/ convictions about the Sabbath in a very similar exhortation again judgment:
Colossians 2:16-17
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Notice, as others have pointed out, that eat and drinking are mentioned here without qualification, festivals are mentioned (feasts of Israel), and the Sabbath day specifically. Not only that, but Paul here clearly says that all of those thing have been fulfilled, their purpose has been accomplished, and so are no longer necessary in light of the present reality of Christ.
Agreed on this. It was just a matter of time before the Gentiles tended to meet specifically on Sunday. But you agree that from early on the Christians seem to have begun congregating on Sunday (Sat. evening). The rationale was that most the early Jewish believers in Yeshua still kept the Sabbath traditionally, attending Synagogue, etc.. and so were unable to just meet with other followers of Yeshua, thus the need to do that at a different time (Sat. Evening)
Other thoughts:
How can you say that Paul isn't addressing arguments over matters of conscience in the above passage?
In your quoting of Hebrews, I noticed something peculiar. This is what you wrote:
Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
I highlighted the word Jesus because apparently your translation put Jesus instead of Joshua (which I find interesting- what translation is it?) I realize the names are equavalent, but it should be particuarly noted that this is not talking about the Messiah, but Joshua of the Old Testament.
You see, the author Hebrews sees the day of rest not as a 24-hour period that comes and goes, but as a permanent state that we can enter into because of Jesus. We have entered into his rest- every day for us now is Shabbat.
|
|
|
|
Post by John on May 5, 2009 5:32:41 GMT -5
the early believeers did not clebrate the sabbath on sunday- they did so later on.
and if you agree that the sabbath commandment is still in force, why can you not follow the puriufication laws which shaul did and spoke of many times throughout his epistles, or follow any of the other ritual laws?
shalom
|
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 8, 2009 15:56:45 GMT -5
also, the fast days is the best explaination that i have come across on the meaning of shauls words. shalom- john
|
|
