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Post by John on Apr 26, 2009 19:37:24 GMT -5
in other threads there have been disagreements on the place in oral law under the brit chadashad. discuss your views here.
i think that any oral law that is possible to folow, does not contradict scripture, fits under your personal convictions, and does not interfere with spreading the gospel is profitable to follow.
Yeshua himself followed some laws and rebuked following some, and others he followed sometimes, but other times said dont worry about them! i think that not folllowing the oral law is not to be considered a sin.
but i think that following the oral law can be used by YHVH to draw certain people closer to him.
i dont think that gentiles should worry about following the oral law until they understand Torah, however. Oral law should not be taught to those who are qualified.
any questions? comments?
shalom- john
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Post by pioneer on Apr 27, 2009 18:39:02 GMT -5
Mr 12:24 Jesus said to them, "Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God?
Speaking to the rulers of the Temple, whatever could he have meant? They were the teachers and the heads of the beit HaMikdash,surely they knew the written Torah!
There must be a reason he told them this.
Remember these were the Sadducees. Of all the harsh things He said to the Pharisees, He never said they did not know the scriptures nor the power of God.
What is the differences in these two groups?
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Post by John on Apr 27, 2009 18:58:36 GMT -5
that is a good way of putting that pioneer- i never used that as a proof before, but it makes sense... g2g- my sister is staring at me like a viper hunting for pray wanting to get on the computer- so more later.
shalom- john
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Post by pioneer on Apr 30, 2009 15:42:10 GMT -5
To the Scribes and Pharisees;
1 ¶ Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples,
2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat;
3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.
4 They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger.
5 They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues,
7 and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men.
If he were solidly against an oral Torah, how could he tell you to practice and observe whatever they tell you?
To the Christians out there, do you obey your God?
He just told you to practice all they tell you, the Kairates, do you?
Like most folks if it is not addressed to you quite personally, "He wasn't speaking to me."
It seems to me that the comforter/counselor brings up all the words Yeshua said to you(Disciples). Oh, then you are saying you are not a disciple?
Okay then you do not have the paraclete!?
Well that makes it a bit clearer.
Then it is my turn to say "Know the Lord" for you do not know him if you do not hear his voice.
Get to know the "word" that came to Abraham and so many other of the ancestors and prophets.
This is the same "Dabar" John said was God.
Even if God was talking to the power at his fingertips and/or the "word" coming from his mouth and refered to those attributes as others Let us make man in our image, why would these utterances out weigh the solid words of
"Besides me there is no____.' savior, god; Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Okay let me prove God wrong.
I would never attempt to do that.
So they tell me only God can do such and such. I say who are you to tell God what he can do, he is "EL SHADDAI" is he not!
Seems to me he can say and it happens!
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Post by John on May 1, 2009 5:46:21 GMT -5
oral law is definately something we should follow if possible- though Yeshua said not following it is not a sin. and he also said not to follow it when certain things happen- ie, the good samaritan story or something. the mitzvot to love is higher than any other commandment.
shalom- john
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Post by pioneer on May 1, 2009 10:11:59 GMT -5
oral law is definately something we should follow if possible- though Yeshua said not following it is not a sin. and he also said not to follow it when certain things happen- ie, the good samaritan story or something. the mitzvot to love is higher than any other commandment. shalom- john Yes, it is clear from Yeshua's teachings that some things allow persons to abridge the mitzvot(temporary) like aiding someone on the Sabbath, to save a life and such, even in the mitzvot the Cohen is exempt from a mitzva in service to God. I think that the Rabbi's didn't want to buck the legalism issue, they did not inquire further on the issue. Yeshua berated them for tradition abrogating the Torah (honor your father and mother)for personal gain. Not allowed in Torah. Fence commandments are good, but can be made into a brick wall. A fence like the 'parapet", needs to be high enough to keep someone from falling off the top of the house, but should not cause the house to fall upon a passerby. Remember a Rabbi is human and can be governed by the flesh also! This is why we are to be as a Berean, checking the Torah, if an oral command voids the torah it is a CYA event of a Rabbi in the flesh, fear God more than man, after man has killed you, he is done, on the other hand God can destroy the body and soul in hell. To blindly follow Rabbinic law is just simply stupid. But to prove it good then follow it, is the proper thing. And remember Yeshua and his followers were threatning their multimillion scheckel business, so many wrong headed issues that pertain to Yeshua. This is where we should draw the line in the sand, "Remember the Alamo." |
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Post by John on May 1, 2009 13:55:11 GMT -5
wonderful words of wisdom. i should write that down.
shalom- john
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Post by chesedv'emes on Sept 22, 2009 15:00:40 GMT -5
Gentiles do not need to, nor should they, follow oral law or Jewish traditions.
It seems a little hypocritical to say, I am going to follow what the sages say
on "A" but not on "B". If one is going to accept the scholarship, authority and
judgment of the sages on one issue, accept it for all....or none.
Sometimes I get the impression that non-Jews think that the rabbis have
grabbed all these rulings out of thin air....when of course, they have all
been based on Torah.
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2009 14:52:34 GMT -5
yes they have... but have they based it on a solid foundation, or one that can be blown away with another verse? often the talmud lets the reader pick the traiditon that they wish; the talmud just recorded the varying traditions.
i dont think gentiles are obligated to follow the oral law, but i dont thinkthey shouldnt either. i think whatever YHVH tells them, do so.
and some of the sages stated that Torah will be changed in the olam haba... but that contradicts maimonaides on "torah is immutable". that i one example that i can think of off the top of my head.
but thank you for the input.
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