anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Apr 19, 2009 23:15:33 GMT -5
So, this might be a good place for me to dive in.
In what ways do you see life as a Jew different than life as a Gentile under the new covenant? Do you see us as sharing in the same covenant, or as involved in two separate but related covenants?
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Post by pioneer on Apr 20, 2009 0:01:48 GMT -5
So, this might be a good place for me to dive in. In what ways do you see life as a Jew different than life as a Gentile under the new covenant? Do you see us as sharing in the same covenant, or as involved in two separate but related covenants? There is not one whit of difference, a Gentile was, but now is a Child of God, all children of God are the same. 8 ΒΆ But now put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and foul talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices 10 and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all, and in all. |
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Post by John on Apr 20, 2009 3:42:18 GMT -5
gentiles are different beause they do not descend from Avraham. they are under the same cov't with the same obligations as jews do. they can join the blessings of the nation of israel by following judaism- but they still need to stay a gentile.
but all the cov'ts were for EVERYONE, not just the jews. even the moshehic was for the gentiles (goyim).
and YHVHs plan for gentiles to stay gentiles has always been- it was man who perverted his cov't and made it seem to say that a gentile is to become a jew.
but i personally think that even gentiles are obligated to keep kashrut and the feasts, etc.
genetics has othing to do with the promises of YHVH- He is not racist, lol.
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
BLUE
Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 20, 2009 9:47:06 GMT -5
In this case, I would recommend you one site, in Hebrew4Christians. Concerning Israel and Gentile believers (AKA Church) www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Israel/israel.htmlMessianic Jews are still Jews when they have accepted Yeshua as their Messiah. They follow the instructions of Torah including animal sacrifices (apostles and their messianic Jewish generation did) and all the precepts as possible. However it's not that easy (if not even possible) to maintain all the commandments of Torah. Therefore Peter said to the ones who wanted to force gentilic believers to keep all the Torah: Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? If a messianic Jew keep the Torah, (that's what I think) he/she keeps it by his/her own possibilities, cos it's impossible to keep all the precepts successfully. Mainly now when temple, Yom Kippur and needed temple sacrifices don't exist yet. For us, as gentilic believers in Yeshua - christians, we need to live by faith only - outer signs such as circumcision of flesh won't bring us salvation, nor keeping of other commandments of Torah which are we as gentiles told that we aren't obliged to keep them (only things in Torah regarding pollutions of idols, fornication, things strangled, and blood. - Acts 15:20) However, I assume one opinion - that we as christians NEED (not for our salvation, but it is better) to return to our Hebraic Roots. We must not forget that we have been grafted to the natural olive - which is, Israel. See the Remnant Theology in the link above, and take a terrifying example of Replacement theology, the worst heresy among christians. Shalom |
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Post by John on Apr 20, 2009 14:40:35 GMT -5
oh my! you are so lead astry- just because Torah cannot be ameans of salvation does not mean it does not need to be followed! Gentile believers dont need to be circumcised to be saved, but after they are saved they should naturally want to be circumcised anyway.
If those 3 or 4 mitzvot are the ONLY things gentiles have to follow than there is alot of room left open for sin that gentiles cannot be held accountable for- and all because of their genetics. that is wrong.
the four mitzvot are actually 3 in number- a discussion for somewhere else- and were decideed as the first commandments to be immeadiately worked on after conversion. They were to eventulally follow other laws of Torah, but they were to start with the noachic cov't and ascend upward.
in MTF i typed a long thing about the cov'ts- they define a lot of my theology.
but anyway- it is evident that i put a lot more weight on gentiles than you do.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 20, 2009 21:20:22 GMT -5
We who become believers are given a bye until we learn how to do the will of God.
John is right that each man who wishes to go beyond salvation and become eligible for electiom must become a keeper of the commandments, all that apply to him where he is at.
To enter the city by it's gates one must become ritually clean, shema v'shemar all that God has presented to his people.
Shalom u'vracha
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2009 14:21:40 GMT -5
i am going to have to check on your theology pioneer. i used to reject it completely b/c what you said soiunded wrong. but reading scripture it seems that there is some truth to it- but i dont think that you have it exactly right. after i organize my thoughts and get the whole of the revelation, i will tell you what i find.
what do you mean by election however?
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Post by pioneer on Apr 21, 2009 15:31:17 GMT -5
i am going to have to check on your theology pioneer. i used to reject it completely b/c what you said soiunded wrong. but reading scripture it seems that there is some truth to it- but i dont think that you have it exactly right. after i organize my thoughts and get the whole of the revelation, i will tell you what i find. what do you mean by election however? "Many are called, but few are chosen." Answering the call leads to salvation, doing the will of God makes one eligible for election! Chosen= Election. |
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2009 15:38:15 GMT -5
what are we chosen for
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Post by pioneer on Apr 21, 2009 17:21:03 GMT -5
To live and reign with Yeshua. Those outside of the Holy City are called and saved. Yet they did not do the will of God. Do a word search on "saved", then "enter the kingdom". |
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2009 18:09:47 GMT -5
who then, are those that are destroyed? what makes them qualified.
but in revelation it states that those thrown outside the gates are fornicators, adulterers, idolotrers, etc. how can these people be saved?
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Post by pioneer on Apr 21, 2009 19:14:58 GMT -5
who then, are those that are destroyed? what makes them qualified. but in revelation it states that those thrown outside the gates are fornicators, adulterers, idolotrers, etc. how can these people be saved? It is in the New Heaven and the New Earth, if they are outside the gates they are saved form the second death, they are those who called upon the name of the Lord, the workers of iniquity, the ones with a form of godliness. |
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Post by John on Apr 22, 2009 17:40:50 GMT -5
oikay- you have explained what you beleive. thank you-
shalom, john
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
BLUE
Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 23, 2009 10:34:39 GMT -5
calm down. I like all the commandments in OT. Do not count me as "Lawless" - because if I want (and if you want), I can go into the second extreme - great legalist. I have such experience with it. Some brothers were rebuking me sometimes.
I agree that EVERY gentile has to keep the commandments as possible. However - there's one thing important to be mentioned. That we live in Aion of Mercy (or Aion of Grace? - eh, don't know the english term for it) - I mean, theological term - Time of spreading the gospel or - Time for gentiles (until all the gentiles as wild olive branches are grafted in) - as Rav Shaul mentions in Romans. I hate all the sayings (may I, also the doers of it? - or better not?) about liberalising the commandments that this wouldn't be important as the Lawless say. I am only reffering to what Rav Shaul says mainly for Galatians - they wanted to get bound unto sacrificial and ceremonial system of OT.
It is certain that all the commandments that are spiritual and moral - this is what EVERY gentile IS OBLIGED to keep, but those ceremonial - such as worshipping system of OT with all the sacrifices, precepts given to Levitical priests and fence around the Torah (that Pharisees added and Yeshua criticised them for it) are not now for us of gentiles to be preserved (at least not in literal way). These things were shadow of future things as Shaul says in Hebrews and as more as we made ourselves dwelling of Holy Spirit - He leads every such believer to fulfill the Torah, even if the believer has no possibilities to read Torah - through conscience and inner voice of HS, such born-again believer is able to fulfill the Torah - by faith and not by pursuing his own righteousness by amount of acts. Fulfillment of whole Torah and Neviim - the whole Word of God is love. Loving the Lord our God in first place and then neighbour as ourselves.
Shalom
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Post by John on Apr 23, 2009 15:59:20 GMT -5
we have always been in the grace of YHVH and gentiles couldve always been part of the blesings of Yisrael- the 'age of grace' has not much to with what modern scholars attribute it too- i cant explain now, but i will--- again, time limit.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 25, 2009 21:56:58 GMT -5
Oh, how I long for the morning when the Rabbi/Preacher/Teacher says; "Good moring ladies and gentlemen, I came out to day to say 'know the Lord' but every one I meet say "I know the Lord!" Every eye has seen and every knee has bowed, the New Covenant is fully here!
But, alas, it wasn't this morning. There are indeed many who know not the Lord!
So this morning; Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good tidings, who publishes peace, who brings good tidings of good, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, "Your God reigns."
Shalom u'vrachot.
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