The Virgin Birth

[John]

i think that Yeshuas body was created and placed inside maries womb, other wise Shaul couldnt have really made such a connection. but then the problem arises on how he was b'nei david... and i wonder how he could be so by blood. the only theory is that Yeshua was modeled after the genetics of Yosef. i dont know though.

shalom- john

[anochria]

i think that Yeshuas body was created and placed inside maries womb, other wise Shaul couldnt have really made such a connection.

Which connection?

[John]

the connection between Yeshua and Ha'adam rishon

[anochria]

Isn't Paul link between Jesus and Adam an argument against Jesus being created "ex nihilo" in the womb? To be truly of Adam's seed (Genesis 3:15), Messiah must be genetically related to Mary.

[John]

if yeshua was a child of Adam, than he couldnt have been born of a virgin.
but yes your perspective is one of many. it can be interpreted this way.

btu the problem is that shaul says that Yeshua was of the tribe of David according to the flesh. if he was born of a virgin than this could not be so simply because maryam would have only been a vessel, so no human would have a part in shaping a persons genetics.

i am personally baffled about whether Yeshua was born of a virgin or not.

and the only reason why i dont doubt the virgin birth is simply because the scriptures of matthew and mark cannot be understood in any other way that doesnt defy the logical flow of the texts.

shalom- john


so here is the dellima: if Yeshua was virgin born, than he is not jewish, because he has no human genetics, and is not the messiah, because he is not of human descent of David.

also, the virgin birth seems to be false because according to Shaul, Yeshua was born of the flesh, born of Judah according to the flesh, born of David according to the flesh, etc.

also, the gospels and episles make clear that Yeshua was tempted in sin just as we are. he was made in the likeness of sinful flesh.

BUT, if you dont believe in the virgin birth than you run into th eproblem of the curse of Jochaniah (which i have solved now). on top of that, there is not one good interpretation that does not involve Yeshua having a different father than Yosef.

and if you dont belive in the virgin birth than you may have a hard time explaining how shaul made the connection to Yeshua and the second adam. if through adam, sin worked through us all, than Yeshua would have been polutted by this sin as well.


anyway, we have a major delimma here.

and if you think that mary had some part in Yeshua's genetics, than where did yeshua get his y-chromosome from.


now, an easy answer out of all these questions is that Yeshua was made with some genetic material that resembled davids, maries, and Yosefs, and maybe left out the part involving Jochaniah.

i dont buy this.

what do you guys think?

[Jonatan]

I say this on the problem:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Matthew 22:41-46

You see this? It's also very interesting for me, as though Yeshua was implying that He is actually not son of man. That would mean only one thing - that He must have been incarned - born as a human into Jewish nation and to fulfill all what's in prophecies - He BECAME human only for us that we might believe in Him, and know that we are blood related to Him. Moreover, Sons of Israel are related to Him, if He was born into circumstances to be thought to be Son of David (through Yosef and Mariam). Through Yosef, only formally.

[John]

well, we must also remember that Matthew is a perculiar place for the virgin birth to be recorded; he starts off his gospel saying 'Yeshua, the seed of david and of avraham.' now, if he was the "SEED" of avraham and david than he was in the loins of david and avraham- literal descendant.

and yet, this genealogy has no reason to be recorded if he was born of a virgin.

also, the geneology of Yosef has no reason to be recorded in Luke if he was born of a virgin.

and luke and matthew are the only two geneologies that (1) support the virgin birth (supposedly) and (2) give geneologies to prove the messiah ship of Yeshua.

and yet if Yeshua was born of a virgin than there would be no reason to record the geneologies!!!

plus, if Yeshua was born of a virgin than he is not jewish by nationality, because he would not be related to any man.

and how could Yeshua be the seed that sshaul spoke of in galatians, if Yeshua was not the literal seed of Avraham.

and how come Shaul says 'of the tribe of judah/descendant of david according to the flesh?

obviously one of two things is happening here:

(1) the virgin birth story was added to the gospels
(2) we are misunderstanding luke and matthew.

shalom- john

[Jonatan]

Even the most orthodox Jewish rabbis have to believe - and they believe in Messiah to come from a virgin - according to Isaiah's prophecy. That seems to be fulfilled - even more, it is mentioned in gospels to be fulfilled - "as is written in Isaiah..."
There's no way to deny virgin birth of Messiah, otherwise He would NOT be Messiah, if the passage from Isaiah hadn't be fulfilled.

But consider one thing - do you think to be the same if the Messiah was born to a virgin that is from heathen nations and if He was born to a Jewish virgin?
It seems that it has some merit, and apparently, the genealogy CANNOT be irrelevant even that He was born from a virgin.

Notice the verse in Luke saying: And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being as was supposed the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,... Luke 3:23

it was only SUPPOSED.

That leads us think how then is He Son of David? Same as He asked Pharisees. Apparently, by that question He gave them such an unsolvable question that ... no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. Matthew 22:41-46

Have you noticed, John that actually we, likewise Pharisees are also asking in this thread HOW THEN IS HE HIS SON?

Maybe somehow spiritual. Yeshua is also not a Ben Yosef literally - but He came as Ben Yosef first time. If we compare the story of Josef, as He was hated, betrayed and sold by his brothers into Egypt, and there, HOW he accepted and forgave his brothers - it is a parable(foreshadow) for Yeshua as Ben Yosef (where josef's brothers are Israel that will one day know their Mashiach).

Parables and prophecies about Yosef on Yeshua:

22 Joseph is a fruitful bough,
A fruitful bough by a well;
His branches run over the wall.
23 The archers have bitterly grieved him,
Shot at him and hated him.
24 But his bow remained in strength,
And the arms of his hands were made strong
By the hands of the Mighty God of Jacob
(From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel)...
Genesis 49:22-24

All this should be foreshadow for Yeshua. I believe, likewise with David, yet we must find out how and what of David is foreshadow on Yeshua.

[John]

The prophecy in isaiah can be interpreted in other ways other than a virgin birth-- there are plenty of other interpretations on the internet alone.

so Yeshua COULD hav e been the mashiach had he not been born of a virgin -- all that would mean is that the pasuk of Isaish was interpreted wrongly by those who do believe in the virgin birth.

plus, you still have nt answered all of my questions... i already gave you the problems with both theories.

shalom- john

[anochria]

if yeshua was a child of Adam, than he couldnt have been born of a virgin.

I don't see how this is accurate. He is a child of Adam through Mary.

Sorry. Don't have time to read the rest. Gotta go, but I'll be back...

[John]

but he had no part in the genetics of either of his parents... just because he exited out of the womb of mary doesnt mean that he was of the sperm of avraham and david.

shalom- john

[Jonatan]

Maybe yes, otherwise He wouldn't even have a shape of a human.

So much I hate the sectarian antichrist denial of Yeshua's virgin birth. If He wasn't born like this, then he was a human and wasn't the Messiah, and hadn't redeemed us from our sins. But I believe He has.

Orthodox Jews believe in Messiah (although not Yeshua) who should be born from a virgin - literally.

I think there's nothing for us to speculate about His birth. That doesn't lead to anything. Just accept and receive it by faith.

[thevicarsson]

Maybe this topic that a lot of us aren't going to agree on, although he wasn't the sperm of Joseph. I believe Joseph still has the strongest claim to fatherhood below God. And for that reason Jesus(yeshua) comes from the line of David.

[John]

the mashiach has no need to be divine, and in fact, you claiming the Mashiachs divinity is lowering the amazement of living a sinless life. OF course Yah can live a sinless life... but he cannot be tempted, and Yeshua was tempted. he does not have flesh, but Yeshua had flesh.

etc.

Yeshua was a mediator, nothing more nothing less. and the trinity was a result of a misunderstanding of this doctrine of the mediator.

and jonatan, you seem to think that faith is blindly believing. i hate that definition.

faith is full reliance on what you believe. and i cannot fully rel on the virgin birth, or the non-virgin birth, until some answers come from either side.

The vicars son:

Just because Yosef adopted Yeshua, does not mean that he is of the line of david,.

he had to be of the SEED (SPERM) of david.


shalom- john

[Jonatan]

and jonatan, you seem to think that faith is blindly believing. i hate that definition.

In last consequence you have to believe even blindly. Not "blind" faith is no real faith, because anyone can deny anything you or I believe.

[John]

I think there's nothing for us to speculate about His birth. That doesn't lead to anything. Just accept and receive it by faith.

"just accepting" is blindly believing. i am not going to just accept. i am going to accept and believe with all my heart and do everything in my power to make sure that i can believe it that way. the virgin birth is an open topic for me--- i cant fully believe either side.

shalom- john

[John]

This is an article that i wrote for my new website on the virgin birth; it gives alternate interpretations to the infancy narratives:


share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docid=0ff7aa67-6afb-4d4f-973f-5212cf0fcd3a

it is about 13-15 pp (cant remember). if you cant click on it than paste it on the adress bar and press enter. you should be able to access it then. then we can discuss what was written

(I fixed your link John)

(thank you itiswritten; i am going to have to change it again, so you might have to fix it agian, lol)

[itiswritten]

Aug 28, 2009 14:27:34 GMT -5 John said:

This is an article that i wrote for my new website on the virgin birth; it gives alternate interpretations to the infancy narratives:


share.acrobat.com/adc/document.do?docid=0ff7aa67-6afb-4d4f-973f-5212cf0fcd3a

it is about 13-15 pp (cant remember). if you cant click on it than paste it on the adress bar and press enter. you should be able to access it then. then we can discuss what was written

(I fixed your link John)

(thank you itiswritten; i am going to have to change it again, so you might have to fix it agian, lol)

No prob John. I checked out your article. I think that you did a very good job on it. There are some things that I disagree some with your logic and you might want to proof read it again for spelling and grammar. I'll try to go back through it again and maybe we can discuss it more. Last year at Sukkot I heard a friend of mine give a couple of presentations related to the virgin birth. It was the best pro virgin birth presentation that I have ever seen. He dealt a lot with the words for virgin and rabbinic usage of the terms.

The last two presentations listed on this page are the ones that I'm referring to.
www.hodsbs.org/studiesmain.htm

You might even email Lee and tell him about the study that you are doing. He might email you some additional information that he has. You can tell him that I referred you to him. He is pretty busy right now I'm sure, but I'm sure that he would enjoy hearing from you. Also, one of these days if you have some extra money, you might think about getting the videos. The one on the star of Bethlehem is excellent. They were selling out of those last year quicker than they could make them.

[John]

hey keith... i will put you on the "share reviewers" list so that you can write little comments on it where you disagree or can give grammar tips.

thanks for the feedback.

shalom- john

I have now put you as "reviewer" on the virgin birth article. i am compelled to ask you to join the website itself (www.barukhyeshua.webs.com ) so that you can be a reviewer for all the articles. as a reviewer, you can type something in a little voice box in the margins with your name on it. these things typed can be "good job" or "i dont agree with this" or "this is spelled like that" etc. you would be a great addition to the site- and i only think there are 20 slots for members, or 25. i dont know for sure.

shalom (again)

[itiswritten]

Sept 1, 2009 9:53:00 GMT -5 John said:

hey keith... i will put you on the "share reviewers" list so that you can write little comments on it where you disagree or can give grammar tips.

thanks for the feedback.

shalom- john

I have now put you as "reviewer" on the virgin birth article. i am compelled to ask you to join the website itself (www.barukhyeshua.webs.com ) so that you can be a reviewer for all the articles. as a reviewer, you can type something in a little voice box in the margins with your name on it. these things typed can be "good job" or "i dont agree with this" or "this is spelled like that" etc. you would be a great addition to the site- and i only think there are 20 slots for members, or 25. i dont know for sure.

shalom (again)

Okay John, I intend on taking a deeper look at the article when I have time.