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Post by John on Apr 16, 2009 15:02:31 GMT -5
This is a VERY interesting subject that is debated amoung messianics, christians and scientists.
For those who favor the virgin birth: did mary have anypart in the genetics of Yeshua? Why is it that no other gospel speaks of the virgin birth other than matthew and luke, and why is it that no epistles speak of it?
for people on either side of the debate: how do you solve the curse of jochaniah?
For those who do not believe in the virgin birth: how do you explain the verses in luke and matthew which seem to claim so?
i really have been debating internally about this subject. both positions produce a MASS of problems. The virgin birth threatens the messianic-ness of Yeshua. if he was born of a virgin than he is not a blood descendant of David, nor is he a blood descendant of Yosef. He also could not be like us in every way like the epistle of Kefa proclaims, since we are not all born of virgins.
the doctrine that there is NO virgin birth generally explains the verses in luke and matthew with an ungodly birth (ie, before the chuppah, yosef and mariam had sex). They also have a BIGGER problem presented with the curse of Jochaniah.
you can see where i am going with this. explain your position and use loads of scripture on this one-- it is a fundamental doctrine.
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 20, 2009 8:44:06 GMT -5
Must say that I always hated such threads to be even discussed. We should look on what the Word of God says. "Thus saith the LORD" should be our opinion for everything if we are true messianics or christians. Otherwise, we can just doubt of anything - e.g. "what if the Torah was made up?" or "what if Moses lied and was inspired by Satan"? or "What if all the OT and NT are just one great deceit?" We should look at all things Word of God wants to tell us IN FAITH.
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. ...
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Yeshua: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Yeshua.
(Matthew 1:18-25)
note: <the last verse expression "knew her not" means the jewish idiom of sexual intercourse within marriage - "to know someone".>
This is the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy in Chapter 7.
Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. ...
(Isaiah 7:10-14)
In MTF there was much quarreling at this theme, and I hated it at all. They tried to state that if Yeshua was not son of David (through Yosef, husband of Mariam), He couldn't be Messiah. The fact is that He could not be Messiah, if He wasn't Son of God, the way that no one of us is. If He wasn't the incarnate, He would not be able to redeem us, and His blood would be insufficient to be our attonement, for every man is born to the world as sinful through first man, Adam, who has fallen to sin.
I have heard one that also Orthodox, rabbinical Jews await Mashiach who will be born from a virgin so that Isaiah's prophecy may fulfill. They do not see that Mashiach has already come in this way yet.
I have also heard one interesting thing. That it's even somehow scientifically proved that every human inherits his/her sinful nature through father, not mother. It may be a reason why woman was chosen for such a task to beget from Holy Spirit. Of course, we should not rely on science but on what the Word of God says, but it's quite interesting.
Concerning Mariam and Yeshua's genealogy through her - it should not be a problem. Not only Yosef was from bloodline of David, but also Mariam - she was probably a cousin of Yosef while also cousin of Elisabeth.
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Post by John on Apr 20, 2009 14:30:28 GMT -5
in the old testement it was always called the 'intiquity of the father' not the mother. i think the father passes on the evil inclination, not sin itself. so i dont believe in original sin, but i think that theory was off only by a little.
as for being the son of David, i do have a hard time with this. somehow i think it must be blood relationship, not legal. but is legal the only way since the curse of jochaniah?
but also remember that if mary actually had a part in the genetics of Yeshua, than he would be related to david AND a yosef- yosef was maryams fathers name. so anyway- my two shekels (as someone would say- cant remember which one said it exactly, lol)
shalom-john
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 21, 2009 8:56:38 GMT -5
but also remember that if mary actually had a part in the genetics of Yeshua, than he would be related to david AND a yosef- yosef was maryams fathers name. so anyway- my two shekels (as someone would say- cant remember which one said it exactly, lol) shalom-john Yeah, my ₪ ₪ in return. btw. What does it mean? Pioneer stated in MTF - to Jeordin that it's a messianic fan "upgrade" of statement "My two dollars" - but anyway, I do not understand this american idiom - what is it used for and when? |
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2009 14:12:41 GMT -5
when you say 'my two shekels' it is a mj way of saying my two cents.
this an american way of saying this is my thoughts on the matter. the messianic just jokingly refer to it as shekels- this was a biblical coin money.
did i answer the question?
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Post by pioneer on Apr 21, 2009 14:53:30 GMT -5
A Childs blood and the mothers blood do not mingle, Adam created in the image of God, had perfect blood/life is in the blood, he sinned and defaced the image, Yeshua is created in the image of God and does not sin and his image is intact til the end, giving the perfect blood to rectify the sinful attribute of man. So each man who paints his doorpost with the blood of Yeshua the Lamb of God, will be passed over and will not die the second death.
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2009 15:41:48 GMT -5
this is what the commandment for the mezuzeh hints at- the blood on doorposts. Yeshua is the word, and the word of YHVH is to be put on the doorpost, and the blood of the lamb was put on the doorpost.
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Post by thevicarsson on May 22, 2009 11:16:10 GMT -5
The fact that only few gospels mention the virgin birth is because back in roman times it was something to be ashamed of, they simply didn't want to state that the son of god was a child of a virgin.
We also will never know whether Jesus was a virgin baby because no book was written by joseph or Mary who would have written about there babies birth.
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Post by John on May 22, 2009 11:23:33 GMT -5
but why didnt bold apostles who didnt really care what anyone siad (like shaul) never speak of the virgin birth. in fact, certain statement of his make him seem like he is oblivious to the fact!
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Post by thevicarsson on May 23, 2009 11:10:07 GMT -5
Well, it is quite possible that he was oblivious to the fact. Its not exactly something you'd boast about. Especially if your the SON OF GOD.
Also can i just coment that according to Matthew and Luke Joseph was a decendent of David. This means that Jesus was from the line of David. But this leads to another question:
Was Jesus from the line of David or does he not come from Davids line because he wasn't Josephs natural son?
I believe he still is from the line of david. Because of the scriptures he must of been, unless Jesus was only a prophet. Which I find impossible to believe.
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Post by John on May 23, 2009 11:27:36 GMT -5
well, Yeshua was from the line of david. the question is HOW.
this is the main reason i started the thread. i dont accept all the 'legal son' crap (if it works for you, fine. but it is not a good enough explanation for me).
i dont have the answer, but i hope someone does.
shalom- john
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Post by thevicarsson on May 23, 2009 13:47:36 GMT -5
Well my first explanation is thrown out the window. Its the legal soon theory for me. The scriptures never said that Jesus had to be genetically related to Joseph, if is father was God how can he have two fathers. God is Jesus father in heaven, Joseph his father on earth.
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Post by John on May 23, 2009 14:54:57 GMT -5
i cant find any way that will explain the scriptures of the virgin birth away either, so i am going to have to find a way to show how Yeshua is related to David. i think it should be by blood.
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on May 25, 2009 7:36:45 GMT -5
What about Mariam? She was also by some means Joseph's counsin and wife as well. She was also blood-related to David through her father. Both Joseph and Mariam.
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Post by John on May 25, 2009 9:52:34 GMT -5
yes, mariam was just a vesel for a created being according to the virgin birth. if yeshua was irgin born than mary had n part in his genetics either. this would make him
1., not the messiah
2. not jewish
shalom- john
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on May 26, 2009 4:46:12 GMT -5
Well, yeah - He must not had sinful nature or yetzer hara, that's why He could not have earthly father.
But that is not problem, if He was in descendant family of David.
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Post by John on May 26, 2009 13:48:46 GMT -5
well, it seems that the Yetzer Hara is passed down through the fathers line. this is 'the iniquity of the fathers'
shalom- john
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anochria
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Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
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Post by anochria on Jun 4, 2009 19:01:14 GMT -5
For what reason do you suppose that Jesus didn't share in Mary's genetics?
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Post by John on Jun 7, 2009 14:56:23 GMT -5
mary was only a vessel. Yeshua was created and directly placed in Maryams womb... if not than Yah would have had sex with a human women, something he told the angels not to do.
shl'om= john
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Jun 8, 2009 8:00:11 GMT -5
On this I agree with you, John. Yeshua would be a Nephilim in the case you mentioned. Maybe He was just 'created' (incarned, cos He existed together with His Father before and not only in His times as a human) just as Adam. Interesting is the link between Adam and Him. Paul calls Him the last Adam through whom not sin, but salvation has come.
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