Easter, Christmas, and Halloween.

[pioneer]

May 1, 2009 16:01:58 GMT -5 anochria said:

Pioneer:

Regarding Easter, you seem to think that celebrating "Easter" makes it automatically a celebration of the goddess Eastre. In my understanding, the Easter celebration was simply named that because it was the name of the month by that time in the common language.

This is similar to most of our days of the week.

Do you refrain from saying words like "Wednesday" or "Thursday" because of their distant associations with pagan deities? (perhaps you do)

You should recall Sha'ul doesn't expect us to leave the world, Yeshua also.
I live in the world and we communicate with others on days of the week. Satan is clever that way.
But remember that your favorite holiday is in the name of God, the seventh day to me is the Sabbath it may carry a name of another God, but I don't go around seeking ways to work it into my sentances.
To know to do right and not doing it is a sin.
I get the feeling this post is to mock those who keep the commands, that is a little bit on the evil side. IMO
Again I am very glad you are forgiven of all your sins, past, present and future sins. But to me there is no sacrifice for intentional sin, it is written! Heb 10:26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Malice of forethought! To know that God said not to have that name upon your lips and for many days prior to the actual date you guys repeat it over and over again with out a pang of fear of God. Go figure?

OBTW, on common language, this is why the Sages of the Hebrews will not tell you the NAME of God, because you would use it in your common language. Where-as even Yeshua used euphemisms in place of the name of God Kingdom of heaven, is one of them, My Father, another.

[anochria]

First off, just to be clear, I don't believe the law has been "abolished" but "fulfilled".

I must re-qualify this statement of mine.

I believe that in one sense the law hasn't been abolished, but fulfilled, as Jesus stated.

But there is another sense, according to Paul, in which Jesus death did abolish the enmity of the law contained in commandments, etc.. (Eph. 2:15).

This is, of course, a large discussion and fits more appropriately elsewhere.

I'm losing track of this thread quite rapidly.

Itiswritten, I'd like to respond to your response to the Hebrews passage above, but I'm thinking it would be good if we just copied and pasted what we had so far on that in a new post specifically on that passage? Does that sound okay?

[anochria]

I get the feeling this post is to mock those who keep the commands, that is a little bit on the evil side. IMO

I certainly haven't given you any reason to say this about me.

[pioneer]

Just how can you be certain you have not?
Condescending is motive enough for me to feel you mock!

[itiswritten]

May 3, 2009 22:22:17 GMT -5 anochria said:

First off, just to be clear, I don't believe the law has been "abolished" but "fulfilled".

I must re-qualify this statement of mine.

I believe that in one sense the law hasn't been abolished, but fulfilled, as Jesus stated.

But there is another sense, according to Paul, in which Jesus death did abolish the enmity of the law contained in commandments, etc.. (Eph. 2:15).

This is, of course, a large discussion and fits more appropriately elsewhere.

I'm losing track of this thread quite rapidly.

Itiswritten, I'd like to respond to your response to the Hebrews passage above, but I'm thinking it would be good if we just copied and pasted what we had so far on that in a new post specifically on that passage? Does that sound okay?

Sure. There may already be a thread on the Sabbath that the posts could be moved to. It's up to you. In certain ways the Sabbath discusssion relates to Easter, Christmas, and Halloween. For the topic basically is discussing substitutions that have been made that departed from days established by The Almighty.

[John]

anochria i will ask you to please post in the spot "the law" inder the moshehic cov't. i think i may copy and paste some of the discussions on YOUR forum there as well.

and then after we have that debate we can show how since the law is not abolished, rthe feasts are not either. and the catholics and late christian sect used thses hoidays to mix with pagan traditions and sects so that the pagans wold become converts. i find this wrong.

shalom- john

[anochria]

OK, here's the thread I started:

barukhyeshua.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=moshehic&thread=82&page=1

and then after we have that debate we can show how since the law is not abolished, rthe feasts are not either.

It's precisely because the law has been fulfilled (not abolished) that the feasts are no longer necessary as outward rituals. They are fulfilled in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We have the fulness of the Feasts and of the Sabbath within us.

[John]

that makes no since seeing as how you fill yourself with the food of idols, not the manna of angels!!

[pioneer]

Agreed makes no sense. And if the law has been fulfilled why do I still have briars and thistles?
This is a part of the law, if fulfilled, therer would be no more briars and thistles.

Also, why do you teach people "Know the Lord" For if it is filled to the full, then all will know the Lord!

Christian rethoric is just empty words, this is why no one is raptured away to this day, Sep. 2008 is when they were to leave us behind, yet the author of this failed prophesy is seen on every morning on his television show, never mentioning his failed prophesy.

Shame on you and all Christians with the 6,000 year philosophy, we're still here. You are still here. I wonder? What could be wrong with their theory?

[John]

But there is another sense, according to Paul, in which Jesus death did abolish the enmity of the law contained in commandments, etc.. (Eph. 2:15).

the ENMITY- not the law itself.


and if yeshua fulfilled the law, then you are to also fulfill it- for we are to live as he lived (1yn).

he was tempted and in every way like us, therefore, everything he did we can do also, and he told us we could do greater things.

[itiswritten]

May 4, 2009 18:17:48 GMT -5 anochria said:

OK, here's the thread I started:

barukhyeshua.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=moshehic&thread=82&page=1

and then after we have that debate we can show how since the law is not abolished, rthe feasts are not either.

It's precisely because the law has been fulfilled (not abolished) that the feasts are no longer necessary as outward rituals. They are fulfilled in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We have the fulness of the Feasts and of the Sabbath within us.

In order for this discussion to be fruitful it is necessary to define what "fulfill" means.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil (4137 pleroo )all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (4137 pleroo )18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (1096 ginomai )19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


NT:4137

pleroo (play-ro'-o); from NT:4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:
KJV - accomplish, after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.


NT:1096
ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):
KJV - arise, be assembled, be (-come, -fall, -haveself), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

We see that the word that is translated as "fulfill" in Matthew 3:15 and Matthew 5:17 comes from the same word which ispleroo.

Therefore we have to show some consistency in the way we define the word fulfill. If Y'shua came to "fulfill" the Torah and that means make an end of it then we also have to acknowledge that when he said that we must "fulfill" all righteousness that now "all righteousness has been ended."

It is simple then. Either the Messiah came to end/fulfill the Torah and end/fulfill all righteousness or he came to fill both to the full. He prefaces his remarks in Matthew 5:17 with "Think not." Obviously most now "think" that he came to destroy the Torah and prophets in spite of his clear statement. Furthermore he tells us that "until heaven and earth pass" not one "yod or tittle" shall pass from the Torah until "all" is fulfilled.

Clearly heaven and earth have not passed away yet. At least they had not when I was outside earlier. Not the smallest part of Torah will pass away until that happens and "ALL" is fulfilled. Certainly all has not be fulfilled yet.

Furthermore Y'shua warns that anyone who practices breaking one of the least commandments and teaching other to will be least in the kingdom. The Sabbath commandment is listed in order above murder and adultery. Clearly the Sabbath is among the great commandments. Y'shua doesn't even bother mentioning those who break the great commandments and teach others to do it. If those who break the least commandments and teach others to are least in the kingdom, it is clear that those who are breaking big commandments and teaching others to do the same will not be in the kingdom.

[pioneer]

Very good Keith, well done.

But just the same in football this would be called "Piling on". LOL
Poor guy hasn't a chance. Suppose we will see a white flag?
I wont hold my breath. Who knows he may become a Messianic or a teacher of Hebrew Roots. God is good and can change whom he wishes to change.

Shalom u'vrachot

[anochria]

that makes no since seeing as how you fill yourself with the food of idols, not the manna of angels

Mark 7:15
Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

Christian rethoric is just empty words, this is why no one is raptured away to this day, Sep. 2008 is when they were to leave us behind, yet the author of this failed prophesy is seen on every morning on his television show, never mentioning his failed prophesy.

Shame on you and all Christians with the 6,000 year philosophy, we're still here. You are still here. I wonder? What could be wrong with their theory?

Please don't lump me together with someone else's idea of eschatology. Why do you feel a need to throw completely unrelated fuel on the fire of an already near contentious conversation? The constant shaming and warning of my impending judgment is getting a little old, especially in light of my freedom in Christ.

Poor guy hasn't a chance.

John, I would highly recommend not allowing this kind of behavior on your forums if you desire to ever build a community of people who are free to use their brains and follow truth wherever it goes (even if for the moment it appears that there is disagreement).

Gentleness and respect should be the rule of a forum dedicated to Yeshua.

[itiswritten]

May 5, 2009 18:13:25 GMT -5 pioneer said:

Very good Keith, well done.

But just the same in football this would be called "Piling on". LOL
Poor guy hasn't a chance. Suppose we will see a white flag?
I wont hold my breath. Who knows he may become a Messianic or a teacher of Hebrew Roots. God is good and can change whom he wishes to change.

Shalom u'vrachot

Thank you Bob. I wasn't trying to pile on him though. I was sharing some things that I discovered back when I was wrestling with some of these issues. It's an important topic and one that is not likely to go away anytime real soon.

[itiswritten]

May 5, 2009 21:01:24 GMT -5 anochria said:

Gentleness and respect should be the rule of a forum dedicated to Yeshua.

I agree with you Anochria. I don't want to come across as though I think I know everything, because I surely don't. I have been wrong about many things in the past and I'm sure that there is still incorrect thinking and theology that I have. My goal however is to know the truth more clearly and to walk in it.

I believe that discussions are most fruitful when they are done in honestly, sincerely and respectfully. I am not too proud to learn from anyone. Though we may not agree on everything, I hope that these discussions will cause us all to honestly search the scriptures and in the process of doing so, that we might all become more aligned to the Word and become more and more conformed into the image of Y'shua (The Living Word.)

[pioneer]

Anochria;
Respect is a two way street!
I have said to you personally, I love you! I respect your right to speak. What I do not respect and will become zealous when error is spoken of as the "Right way", the "Truth" that the title of this thread is in anyway good, proper and of God!
I will not say anything disrespectful to anyone who speaks the words Jesus spoke, like
"If you love me keep my commandments." "Go and sin no more." "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.", But he answered and said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
1Co 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me.
1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
Eph 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.
1Th 1:6 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit;
1Th 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,
Heb 6:12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Search the Tanack from stem to stern and if you can find the words that earn my disrespect, I will apologize to you personally, in front of your congregation. (From the mouth of God.)
He did not speak those words and as Yeshua repeats that man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

OBTW; Mr 8:33 But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men."
29 But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God."
"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

So much for tenderness and respect.
Surely, a well done, good and faithful servant was expected. -------------not!

[John]

John, I would highly recommend not allowing this kind of behavior on your forums if you desire to ever build a community of people who are free to use their brains and follow truth wherever it goes (even if for the moment it appears that there is disagreement).

i dont appreciate you discussing these things on a thread where anyone can see them. dont do it agaain. i have dealt with your obvious problem. if there is trouble again, i will take the neeeded precautions.

and remember what type of person pioneer is- a sarcastic one. dont take what he says personally, or you will get really hurt. take what he says seriously though.

once again, i talked to him. and you should not expres these problems anymore apart from a PM to me.

[anochria]

I believe that discussions are most fruitful when they are done in honestly, sincerely and respectfully. I am not too proud to learn from anyone. Though we may not agree on everything, I hope that these discussions will cause us all to honestly search the scriptures and in the process of doing so, that we might all become more aligned to the Word and become more and more conformed into the image of Y'shua (The Living Word.)

Thank you, itiswritten. I appreciate this tremendously. And all of us are more likely to change our minds in response to truth in this kind of environment.

The "gentleness and respect" I mentioned was a biblical mandate (1 Peter 3:16), not my own personal mantra.

And in my opinion, it must be the rule of a forum like this if it's going to survive (I speak this from much experience). If it's not the rule, then people will not stay long.

[John]

sadly- thats what happened with Tonga- iu spoke before i acted/typed, and she/he left.

shalom- john

[anochria]

We all have a learning curve. I definitely have- especially on forums.