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Post by John on Apr 8, 2009 14:00:45 GMT -5
Okay... are the two wit=nesses of revelatoin mosheh and eliyahu, or eliyahu and hanech?
scriptural proofs can be found for all of them but:
hanech is not ever mentioned together with eliyahu except for a few gnostic apocryphal writings. it is always mosheh with him. "the law and the prophets' and mosheh came down with eliyahu on the transfiguration
but mosheh died. this produces a dillemma for he trasfiguration sas well -- was yeshua speaking with a spirt, something he banned in the Torah?
so can anyone explain this?
i have got another nugget of information soon as well, but i cant type much now.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 8, 2009 16:54:27 GMT -5
Okay... are the two wit=nesses of revelatoin mosheh and eliyahu, or eliyahu and hanech? scriptural proofs can be found for all of them but: hanech is not ever mentioned together with eliyahu except for a few gnostic apocryphal writings. it is always mosheh with him. "the law and the prophets' and mosheh came down with eliyahu on the transfiguration but mosheh died. this produces a dillemma for he trasfiguration sas well -- was yeshua speaking with a spirt, something he banned in the Torah? so can anyone explain this? i have got another nugget of information soon as well, but i cant type much now. Well we are assuming here aren't we? since they are not named, you can transfer from other verses, but you can't know for sure. I'll let it be a surprise when it is revealed. Remember there are two witnesses decrying ADDing to the books. Have a respectful fear of the Lord. Shabbat (erev)Shalom |
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Post by John on Apr 8, 2009 17:49:02 GMT -5
no they are not naimed, but decided to mention eliyahu mosheh and hanech bacuse those are teh three candidates. eliyahu is one of them for sure.
but i think the hanech is the second, again i will have to type that later but it has to do witht the olive trees in ro 11.
perry stone pointed this out to me. he preaches on it on that website that i have given before
okay.... so inromans there are two olive trees. one is wild one is a regular olive tree. The wild one represents the gentiles nations, and the other olive tree represents Yisrael.
in revelations, two olive trees and candlesticks stand before the lord, representing the two prophets who will come down before Yeshua's coming as ben David. we also know that these prophets are spoken of in zechariah as wel, so it cant be anyone past the time of zechariah.
so i deducted (with help of perry stone) that the olive trees must be wild and natural. in other words, one of the prophets are to be gentile, and the other jewish (hebrew). so that means that Eliyahu, as the definate candidate, would be the jewish/ natural olive tree. since mosheh is also jewish ( i use the term broadly) than he cannot be the second prophet. so i deduct that the only other person that went up like eliyahu was hanech, and he didnt die, and he is gentile, so he is the most likely candidate as the second tree.
this is one of the biggest reasons that i beleive that hanech is the second witness.
and that mosheh is dead. but again, this produces a problem for the transfiguration account-- if mosheh was dead than yeshua communicated with dead spirit, which is necronomancy- a thing clearly banned by the Torah. can anyone esplain this? there is no doubting that Mosheh is dead, and he cant have ressureced, could he?
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 9, 2009 7:47:48 GMT -5
okay.... so inromans there are two olive trees. one is wild one is a regular olive tree. The wild one represents the gentiles nations, and the other olive tree represents Yisrael. in revelations, two olive trees and candlesticks stand before the lord, representing the two prophets who will come down before Yeshua's coming as ben David. we also know that these prophets are spoken of in zechariah as wel, so it cant be anyone past the time of zechariah. so i deducted (with help of perry stone) that the olive trees must be wild and natural. in other words, one of the prophets are to be gentile, and the other jewish (hebrew). so that means that Eliyahu, as the definate candidate, would be the jewish/ natural olive tree. since mosheh is also jewish ( i use the term broadly) than he cannot be the second prophet. so i deduct that the only other person that went up like eliyahu was hanech, and he didnt die, and he is gentile, so he is the most likely candidate as the second tree. this is one of the biggest reasons that i beleive that hanech is the second witness. and that mosheh is dead. but again, this produces a problem for the transfiguration account-- if mosheh was dead than yeshua communicated with dead spirit, which is necronomancy- a thing clearly banned by the Torah. can anyone esplain this? there is no doubting that Mosheh is dead, and he cant have ressureced, could he? You're right. If Moshe was dead, Yeshua would perform necromancy. But what if Moshe is not dead, but has been raised? Absolutely I believe Moshe had to be ressurected. When Yeshua with Peter, James and John were at mt. transfiguration, it were MOSES and ELIJAHU, Enoch wasn't there. I admit Enoch would be a great candidate for one of the witnesses, but only without this event when Yeshua talked to Moshe and Elijahu. Take care what Yeshua told to disciples after this: 9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."
10 The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
11 Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.
12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.(Matthew 17:9-11)This was very powerful vision. Disciples must have marvelled at this greatly why there were Moses and Elijah. So UNBELIEVABLE for them. It should imply that Moses has been ressurected and now lives - they both live with Elijah somewhere in the place Lord established for them. I strongly believe that Lord has that special mission for them both - He prepares them for the last times to present themselves within restoration of the 3rd temple with its performance. Well, quite interesting - the teaching about one wild and one natural olive from Romans (as Gentile nations and Yisrael), but Moses and Elijah fit into Revelation 11 better. Revelation 11 says about signs - miracles of judgement that come upon rebelling people. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.(Revelation 11:5-6)If we look better, we see two signs of miracles done by Elijah - these are first ones: released fire in the name of the Lord to consume the foes, and shutting up the sky during the time of prophesying. If you remeber well, Elijah was doing the same. Plus, one interesting thing - Apostle James, Yeshua's brother by flesh mentions Elijahu in his epistle. 17 Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.(James 5:17-18)I want you to stress your look into verse 17 - something amazing! Elijah did this during 3,5 year - for the same time as he will do as one of the olives. Elijah is definite answer for one of the olives. No one can disprove Elijahu concerning this. Now, what about Moses? The second two signs - see above to Rev.11, verse 6 - belong to Moses. The same what he did in Egypt - turning water into blood and performing other plages in the name of the Lord. Remember - 10 plagues were dropped upon Egypt. And yes, by the way, Moses is representant of Torah. Therefore I think Two witnesses have no business with Gentile nations, they are sent for Yisrael to restore the order. Every sincere Jew (of course who is not liberal, atheistic and godless) would have respectful, holy fear of Moses and Elijah. I have a proof in Scripture implying something unusual to happen with Moses - and so that Lord did not allow him to go to underworld - into Abraham's womb, nor into Sheol. Apostle Judah: 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"(Jude 9)Very interesting! As I have heard, it comes also from some Extra-biblical sources that Moses was preserved - the mention that Michael struggled with HaSatan for body of Moshe - I did not have much time to study it, but if you know something about it, let it be known here immediately! It may help greatly to understand more things. |
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Post by John on Apr 9, 2009 8:03:37 GMT -5
yes. the extra biblical books suggest that Mikhael fought samael for the body of mosheh... this suggests that he could have been ressurected and/or never died because the circumstances changed.
i liked your post jonotan, but what happened to hanech then?
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 9, 2009 9:09:28 GMT -5
yes. the extra biblical books suggest that Mikhael fought samael for the body of mosheh... this suggests that he could have been ressurected and/or never died because the circumstances changed. i liked your post jonotan, but what happened to hanech then? Hanech - you mean Enoch, right? Well, why? He is in heaven - maybe a 'prototype' of those (maybe our generation if Lord wants so) who will be raptured up to heaven without need of their dead. It may correspond to what Yeshua says that if someone keep Lord's commandments, such righteous person doesn't have to die, but live forever. It is not necessary to die - the last generation of Christian/Messianics will be the proof of it - their bodies only changed and taken up to heaven. John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" So some people will literally never die. And Enoch, as some biblical teachers teach, is the first prototype of those raptured. btw. he was the 7th from Adam, which means that seventh - the last (7 is number of completeness) generation. |
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Post by John on Apr 13, 2009 15:46:13 GMT -5
okay... well how was mosheh ressurected if Yeshua is the firstfruits of all who slept?
but on the same hand, how was lazerus and others ressurected either?
what is shauls meaning f this?
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Post by itiswritten on Apr 13, 2009 17:39:12 GMT -5
Matthew 17
1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Consider this too: Once someone is resurrected are they subject to time? Is it possible for people who will be resurrected in the "future" in our time"line" model to go back in time and appear? I think that is part of the problem in understanding many passages: Our view of time.
I've used the example a lot, but it bears repeating. Consider we are all on the street corner observing a passing parade. We watch as fire truck goes by followed by a marching band, civic groups and at the end we see the mayor waving to the crowd. We discuss what occurred first and the events that we observed until the end.
Now consider that rather than watching the parade from the street corner, we are given the opportunity to observe it from a helicopter. Now, we see the beginning and end and all in between at one moment.
We have been conditioned to see many passages of the bible in a very linear way. Rarely do people view the Bible or time in a cyclical way or from another perspective. Now back to the olive trees.
You might want to check this passage out also John.
Zechariah 4
1And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
7Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
8Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
10For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
11Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.
Consider also that in Revelation 11 we are told of their capabilities. They have power to turn water to blood. Who do we know that did this? They also have power to shut up heaven that it rain not. Who do we know that did this?
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Post by John on Apr 13, 2009 19:38:06 GMT -5
but how can Yeshua be the first fruits of all who slept when others were ressurected before him?
i have no doubt that Mosheh is the second witness now.
Also, i wondered whther the visions are 'time limiting'. Ezekiel saw a man measuring the futuristic temple. Yochanon measured the temple in revelation. could these posibly be the same people?
i have also come across the tradition that when the mashich ben David comes, The first person to be ressurected is Mashiach ben Yosef. we know that the Mashiach ben Yosef was ressurected, so maybe Yeshua firstfruits of a greatergroup to come, not that he is the first of ALL who slept, just the first of those in a certain group who slept.\
this is the only other question i have about the theory of mosheh being the other witness, save my question about what happened to hanech.
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 14, 2009 4:09:45 GMT -5
but how can Yeshua be the first fruits of all who slept when others were ressurected before him? i have no doubt that Mosheh is the second witness now. Also, i wondered whther the visions are 'time limiting'. Ezekiel saw a man measuring the futuristic temple. Yochanon measured the temple in revelation. could these posibly be the same people? i have also come across the tradition that when the mashich ben David comes, The first person to be ressurected is Mashiach ben Yosef. we know that the Mashiach ben Yosef was ressurected, so maybe Yeshua firstfruits of a greatergroup to come, not that he is the first of ALL who slept, just the first of those in a certain group who slept.\ this is the only other question i have about the theory of mosheh being the other witness, save my question about what happened to hanech. Vision about Ezekiel should be the same as Yochanan had in Revelation 11. The main thing is that such kind of temple what Ezekiel describes has never been built yet. So I believe it to be the third temple. And next thing about the 3rd temple - there will be also restored sacrificing of animals by the order of Torah, by Levitical commandments. We know that Antichrist will stop the sacrifices in that temple and pollute it by his idol(s). About the next temple, we know Yeshua will return and will have temple in Yerushalayim for Him and (I think) also for us with Him. In that temple will not those Old Testamental animal sacrifices be needed. Sacrifices are needed for 3rd temple for those Jews who do not know and have not yet believed in Yeshua (as by the prophecy they cannot, anyway) to atone for sins using Old Testamental order. Ezekiel says that living water shall stream from it. That resemble 1000yrs kingdom with Yeshua when not only temple, Jerusalem, Israel, but whole the earth will be filled by His glory and blessing in every nature - no cursed trees, waters, but everything beautiful, healthy and growing. Even deserts turned into - water? or woods? - ah, correct me please, I need to read Isaiah more. These are details, but true and good to understand even now. Concerning Moses and Elijah - well they are just special. Lord God has unique plan for every believer. Do you remember Elijah and Elisha, his follower? They were sent by Lord to resurrect some people even in their times, in OT. Yeshua is firstfruit of all that will gain new, eternal, heavenly bodies. Remember - Moses and Elijah will be killed by the Beast - so that they have not yet the heavenly bodies as Yeshua have. But after resurrection and rapture in sounding of the 7th trumpet, they two will never die anymore and will have eternal bodies - same as we shall have. |
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 13:23:22 GMT -5
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