Is there a rapture?

[John]

This question is debated by christians- much more btwn christians and other NT religions:

Is there a rapture? If so, what are the proofs for it, and how can you be so sure they do not refer to the ressurection?

So soon-to-be-members... what do you think?


i personally think that the versees used to prove the rapture are actually refering to the ressurection. BUT i am very shaky on the subject of the ressurection and rapture right now, and wish to see if anyone can change my mind.

[pioneer]

Words of Yeshua Mt. 24:29-31,
Sha'ul in Cor. and Thes. but not as Christians seem to believe, Resurrection comes before rapture.

[walt]

I never bought into the "left behind" rapture mindset when I was in christianity.

Messiah, and The Scripture talk about the harvest (of souls)

'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

(Matthew 13:30)

And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe."

(Revelation 14:15)

This is a common theme, harvest relating to the end times.

The rapture is a fairly new concept promoted by christianity.
If it's popular and proclaimed by churchianity - I'm highly suspect.

[Jonatan]

Cocerning rapture, even early christians of apostolic era believed the concept of rapture or what we call it. Simply, it's idea about taking someone up to heaven. Same as Enoch or Elijah were.
Why the word 'Rapture'? Well, in theology this event has been called because of its meaning. The meaning is to 'take something by force', in greek word used harpadzo, which is also used for thugs or thiefs who take wealth by force. So will Yeshua take us by force - steal us as his bride from dominion of the Prince of darkness, ruling in this world. by the way, Yeshua is not a bloody thief, but He comes only for that what belongs to Him. That's why we He says: "Behold, I come as a thief" and must be prepared and belong to Him. If we belong to the world, Yeshua won't take us, cos He won't take what's not his.

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
(Luke 21:34-36)

[walt]

I prefer to stick to terms and definitions given by Scripture.

The harvest is Yahweh's picture to us of bringing us into His.

Noah and the ark are a type and shadow for us - Yahweh's chosen were kept safe in the ark as judgment was delivered upon the earth.

Also the verse I used earlier:
'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

The lost are FRIST "taken by force" before Yahushua's followers are gathered togeather.

[John]

what about the Major rapture, like BEFORE the tirbulation?

[walt]

Apr 2, 2009 14:13:33 GMT -5 John said:

what about the Major rapture, like BEFORE the tirbulation?

Don't buy into it - the verse quoting Messiah I showed contradicts that.

[pioneer]

I agree with walt, we will meet him in the air as Sha'ul says, but we shall all be with Him as he sets His feet on Mt. Zion.
There is no scripture of a near miss, it is his second coming, He will be here.
Ressurection then meet Him in the Air! MT.24:29-31 the trumpet, Angels gather the dead from the four corners of the earth, then if you want to call it rapture, okay! Not on the order of Christian Theology.

[Jonatan]

Yes! That's it. As Pionner mentioned, "rapture" is the post-ressurectional event of changing our bodies into heavenly, because flesh and blood cannot inherit heavenly kingdom. (1.Cor.15:50, KJV)

It's the time when we (I mean those who will attend on it) ultimately defeat death by the words: Where is your sting, your power, o Death? Where your victory? Death is consumed in victory. (1.Cor. 15:54-55, KJV)
I mentioned those who attend on this for the reason that not just anyone will participate on this occassion. Ressurection and following "rapture" or getting our bodies turned into heavenly ones to meet Yeshua in clouds take place within the last trumpet, 7th trumpet in Revelation chapter 11. It's when the Two witnesses (Two olives & two lampstands-menorahs) are slain by the Beast, ressurected and followingly "raptured" or taken as we in the rapture.
Those slain by the Beast in following chapters are those who do not take part on "rapture". They must wait for Yeshua's return with us to be ressurected then, even at the cost of martial death by not bowing down to the Beast or his image - (Revelation chapter 20).
If someone ask whether the last trumpet sounded mentioned by Paul - Rav Shaul in 1.Cor.15:51-52 (KJV) belongs to seven trumpets in Revelation, I may assure anyone that in truth it refers to it. In Revelation 10.chapter there's an angel announcing the near mystery of ressurection with following rapture - the same mystery mentioned by Rav Shaul in 1.Cor.15:51 (KJV).

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1.Corinthians 15:51-52, KJV)

And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
(Revelation 10:1-7, KJV)

So by the scripture we know quite exact timeline, mainly when and between what events ressurection with "rapture" occurs.

[John]

okay. that makes sense and explains the apparent contradictions, but why would we be brought into the air just to come down on the earth again?

[pioneer]

Apr 3, 2009 13:52:01 GMT -5 John said:

okay. that makes sense and explains the apparent contradictions, but why would we be brought into the air just to come down on the earth again?

We don't have an explaining scripture.
So we should accept it as a done deal and let Yeshua reveal the fact when He comes.
There are alot of unexplained events in scripture, we can ponder the point and make up thearies but since we have the same scriptures and there is only ones that state a fact. So like trinity and rapture then all the speculation only leads to dispute. And we are to not quibble over words.

[John]

perhaps it is because not everyone is in Yerushalayim, so we float to it.

[Jonatan]

Why? Well, that's quite explained in scripture, I would say. As the bride of the Lamb, his Kahal, or Ekklesia or Church or whatever, we will go to wedding with the Lamb, our Yeshua. To become His people once and for all so that nothing can separate us from Him forever. We may also say that we go to Yeshua to get armed and to bring vengeance together to those dwelling on earth who murdered us and our brethren.

[John]

wow. okay. you answered that question. now that all my questions about this particular theory is answered dthan i think i will go meditate on it and ask for guidanse of YHVH. i will post later what i think on the rapture.

[Never Looking Back]

Apr 2, 2009 14:13:33 GMT -5 John said:

what about the Major rapture, like BEFORE the tirbulation?

Here are the various beliefs about rapture

www.apologeticsindex.org/r16.html

[Jonatan]

Let us not bow to what people speculate about rapture if they want to criticise it because it sounds too good that some people would never die. Most possibly our generation - Jewish year 6000 is near and the messianic kingdom should be the great millenial Shabbat of the earth. If in following September there'll be Jewish year 5770, we might expect tolerance of remaining 230 years until 6000, but as I have heard, Jewish calendar is late - during Babyonian captivity or then, some one hundred and some years have been forgotten. So some biblical teachers say it should occur in our generation. According to what Yeshua said in eschatological parts of gospels, not one generation shall pass away until all is fulfilled.
34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
(Matthew 24:34)

It is used to say that it counts from 1948 when Israel has been renewed. If we follow description of one generation by covenant of Noach, it would be 120 years. 1948 + 120 = 2068. Year 2068 would be the maximum range in which these things would happen.
I don't know - My aim is not to calculate date of Yeshua's return, it may sound sectarian - I just want to stick together with what Word of God says about the events preceding the rapture.

To report on those pre-, mid- and post- trib. ideas, Mid-tribulation most resemble biblical concept. 7th trumpet sounds after killing of Two witnesses at the end of the first 3 1/2 year period and their replacement by the Beast and the False Prophet, where they start the second 3 and 1/2 year period.
Concerning Lord's return - there's no mention 'WHAT' Lord's return. Matthew, Mark and Luke say about Yeshua's return to clouds, no to the earth - so it mean the time period of rapture where the believers are taken into clouds - first into heaven to gain reward for their life on earth (Chapter 11, from verse 15 to 19 - if you have NIV translation you may find this passage labeled as The Seventh Trumpet), and then to accompany Yeshua with return on earth with judgement (in Chapter 19).

[John]

well- this is interesting- i have never looked at it this way before. i really have to study---

YHVH works in my life in waves- he gives me LOADS of spiritual food, and then lays back to let it seep in. this happens cylcically. and you guys dont even realize it but you are being used by YHVH. i will have to tezt the spiritas of this doctrine, but i will definately consider it.

it makes more sense than the other doctrines.

[Jonatan]

May 4, 2009 14:08:38 GMT -5 John said:

well- this is interesting- i have never looked at it this way before. i really have to study---

YHVH works in my life in waves- he gives me LOADS of spiritual food, and then lays back to let it seep in. this happens cylcically. and you guys dont even realize it but you are being used by YHVH. i will have to tezt the spiritas of this doctrine, but i will definately consider it.

it makes more sense than the other doctrines.

Hallelujah!!! I'm so glad that I walk in the will of the Lord! Glad that YHVH uses me - even in this theme. I just feel these things are which I have to be busy with - it's very serious by every one proceeding day to be busy with eschatology, for the time is near.
Word of God just must not contradict itself but needs to be completed as puzzle. Let us be busy with the Word until every piece of puzzle is laid on the correct place - that's how I see it.
If there are two or more witnesses for one thing - it mean that two or more puzzle pieces are in concordance. And some of them are corner puzzle pieces or border puzzle pieces - we absolutely know where they must go and we cannot lay them elsewhere - these are the main important things in the Word which we cannot misinterpret by allegorizing it - such as Torah or such as every Lord's commandments which we are supposed to take literally and not to avoid it.
There are thoughts wanting to intrude into my mind - and I hope they are of Satan - wanting me to deceive and accuse falsely, saying something as: "you are just a dogmatic" or "you take the Bible too literaly and thus you don't understand it" or many others trying to accuse me of false prophecy. - if anyone bow down to these thoughts and the voice that is beyond them, everyone would find out that these thoughts have one goal - to make holy people mixed with the world, to force them to accept sin and make compromises with this world. Let it stand away from us!
I thank Lord that He leads me - as I hear also from you, John. If it helps, let it increase.
It's good and calming when you hear that your activity helps the people of God.

...and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. (1.Cor.7:40 ;D)

[John]

amen