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Post by John on Apr 2, 2009 18:08:17 GMT -5
Daniel is a very weird book. it is hard to understand to many who are not well taught in the jewish history during the babylonian exile, or modern jewish traditions.
but even the people who do know these things fight over the meaning of daniels book.
was daniel a coded history book, using symbolism so that he didnt get kicked in the rear by the babylonians? This is what the rabbinic jews (as a whole) propose, and many christian sects.
Or was Daniel a prophetic book, like most christians believe? did he only use symbolism because it was revealed to him this way?
what do you guys think?
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Post by itiswritten on Apr 2, 2009 19:34:47 GMT -5
I think that much of it is prophetic. However, now a lot of it is history.
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Post by John on Apr 2, 2009 20:10:01 GMT -5
wow... good point itiswritten. very simply put yet well explained. lol
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 3, 2009 7:53:22 GMT -5
Book of Daniel is prophetic as well as historic. In the past, mainly in times of Daniel himself, but also in next generation of him it was more prophetical. We may say by every advance of time, it is less prophetical and more historical. However there are things which are prophetical until today - concerning Antichrist (Daniel 8, conclusion) as the evil king who will stand against the King of Kings (Yeshua) himself - who will be crushed that no one will help him.
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Post by John on Apr 3, 2009 13:50:12 GMT -5
many belive that all the references to visions were just ways to code the jewish history book and make it look like a historical fanatical teaching.
many think the same of revelation. they say that it is PURELY history. i dont know... i have not looked far enough into either argument to make a choice.
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 4, 2009 7:49:45 GMT -5
Book of Daniel IS A PROPHETIC BOOK STILL - no matter what anyone unbelieving says. There's mentioned King of Kings, Yeshua. As in His death, also in His second coming in glory to bring vengeance and righteousness to the earth. Daniel is the main overview book of history of great empires - from Babylonian to the last evil empire, which will be crushed and Kingdom of God will be established in the earth in full power and strength. We must not forget that Daniel wrote what angels commanded him to write - about future of his people and timeline of gentile kingdoms, which will one day each pass away.
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Post by John on Apr 4, 2009 8:47:46 GMT -5
but how do we decide which is the right interpretation? what clues from daniel can make us go for one theory or another? we need evidence for both sides. i personally dont know. but i like seeing your guy's views- helps me decide mine.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 4, 2009 23:02:36 GMT -5
but how do we decide which is the right interpretation? what clues from daniel can make us go for one theory or another? we need evidence for both sides. i personally dont know. but i like seeing your guy's views- helps me decide mine. This is a job for the Comforter/Counseler/HS, Jn.14:25-26. In the Hebrew writings (oral torah) it is said that every child born has the "word of God" on it's lips, at birth, first breath, an Angel touches it and it forgets. Yeshua says the Counseler/HS will bring to your remembrance all the I have said/"word of God". Was an "Aha" moment for me. When I was searching for the "Truth" it was as if someone took the veil away or brought to my remembrance and I understood, I wasn't fully aware just what I knew, but I knew I knew! That is how it happened to me and the HS keeps making me more aware everyday. Baruch Hashem |
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 5, 2009 3:41:33 GMT -5
Wow, how biblical and proving the experience of brothers and sisters in my congergation! To know they know they know. That's fitting.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 11:23:01 GMT -5
Wow, how biblical and proving the experience of brothers and sisters in my congergation! To know they know they know. That's fitting. That's just how it happened to me. The discovery of the (ot) Angel causing to forget and the subsequent reading of the HS bringing it to our rembrance was years later, but the I knew that I knew was present form the day of the visitation(HS). Todah Rabah Baruch Hashem |
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Post by John on Apr 5, 2009 13:17:42 GMT -5
wow pioneer, thats a powerful teaching. i was like OMG when i saw that. i wrote it down in my theological notebooks and i am going to put every 'look at this' symbol i can think of so that i wont miss it.
that is crzy... did you read my post about pre- life when i was a member of MTF? did i even post about it. i talked aboutt how i believed that the spirit lived and learned Torah in heaven before we are born and that when the time comes, we are put in a body that 'science created' and that sometime after we are born we do something the tebetans call 'passing over' (ironically, the movie 'babie genius's" mentions this). Passing over is when we orget everything we knew.
but it is similar to what you said.
i will look more into what you pointed out. if what you figred out is true (which most likely it is) than i think the Ruach HaKodesh would have to have lifted the veil progressively and not all at one time, because we are still learning.
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Post by pioneer on Apr 5, 2009 15:17:28 GMT -5
wow pioneer, thats a powerful teaching. i was like OMG when i saw that. i wrote it down in my theological notebooks and i am going to put every 'look at this' symbol i can think of so that i wont miss it. that is crzy... did you read my post about pre- life when i was a member of MTF? did i even post about it. i talked aboutt how i believed that the spirit lived and learned Torah in heaven before we are born and that when the time comes, we are put in a body that 'science created' and that sometime after we are born we do something the tebetans call 'passing over' (ironically, the movie 'babie genius's" mentions this). Passing over is when we orget everything we knew. but it is similar to what you said. i will look more into what you pointed out. if what you figred out is true (which most likely it is) than i think the Ruach HaKodesh would have to have lifted the veil progressively and not all at one time, because we are still learning. No, it was the HS coming into me at once I knew, the rest is an "AHA' thing, like I knew that why didn't see it before? Yes the HS will teach you all things. Sometimes a wee small voice, but It/he is bringing it to remembrance. Not at all meaning I can't be taught! Or I've got my mind made up! If we fail to be open to his teaching we will miss those things. There will be no aha moment, if we ignore it. We must test all spirits because we still have the deciever with us. Do you not think Peter was a little miffed when Yeshua said "Get behind me satan'? Sugar coat the bitter pill. Did Yeshua? |
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 6, 2009 7:45:19 GMT -5
Wow, how biblical and proving the experience of brothers and sisters in my congergation! To know they know they know. That's fitting. That's just how it happened to me. The discovery of the (ot) Angel causing to forget and the subsequent reading of the HS bringing it to our rembrance was years later, but the I knew that I knew was present form the day of the visitation(HS). Todah Rabah Baruch Hashem Al-Lo Davar, Pioneer! Great that ye have such relationship with HS. Very important! How necessary from HS to get word of God recalled to us! wow pioneer, thats a powerful teaching. i was like OMG when i saw that. i wrote it down in my theological notebooks and i am going to put every 'look at this' symbol i can think of so that i wont miss it. That's what i did also. Some things should be preserved and stored. Good that Hebrew traditions help us even in our relationship with HS. Yum!  No, it was the HS coming into me at once I knew, the rest is an "AHA' thing, like I knew that why didn't see it before? Yes the HS will teach you all things. Sometimes a wee small voice, but It/he is bringing it to remembrance. Not at all meaning I can't be taught! Or I've got my mind made up! If we fail to be open to his teaching we will miss those things. There will be no aha moment, if we ignore it. We must test all spirits because we still have the deciever with us. Do you not think Peter was a little miffed when Yeshua said "Get behind me satan'? Sugar coat the bitter pill. Did Yeshua? I'd like to cooperate with HS more and more. Sometimes I am told by brothers that I should not just read and read Bible, but have more relationship with Lord and HS. I agree, but it may turn also quite dangerous. I guess - if it's HS, He cannot go against Scripture. That does Spirit of Antichrist. Every spirit must be reviewed by the Word of God. And yes, IMHO in too fanatical charismatic world, the main stress is put on miracles or healing and only just this stuff - omitting that if Word of God resides in me (in commandments, in doing Lord's will) I have HS as well. Can you brothers share also some thread about relationship with Lord, with HS or how to be lead by God, carefully with no problems? Concerning this thread we should stay on the topic, which is, Daniel. Shalom U'vrachem |
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Post by pioneer on Apr 6, 2009 10:36:40 GMT -5
Jonatan; Most if not all of my 'aha' moments come with reading of the Parshahs, haftorah and the b'rt hadashah, in my Sabbath Torah study.
The Hebrew Sages say you do not fully contain the scriptures until you have read it 100 times.
I've got many more aha's to go. LOL
The HS speaks more when you are deffinately listening, most feelings one has are from the other side or it maybe just heartburn. We are instructed to align it with Torah, if not we just may fall for just any old thing. Follow instructions(Torah) and all will go well with you.
Shalom
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Post by John on Apr 6, 2009 14:16:50 GMT -5
when i was in the pentecostal church, my mother would always make me feel like i had NO relation ship with YHVH whatsoever. she said i needed to cut deown on the reading and buoilt up the relation ship. tha same thing was said with the chruch people.
i got so angry. that WAS how i was building my relationship with YHVH. but i didnt know how to tell them that.
so i can REALLY relate with you jonotan
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 7, 2009 7:33:27 GMT -5
Jonatan; Most if not all of my 'aha' moments come with reading of the Parshahs, haftorah and the b'rt hadashah, in my Sabbath Torah study. The Hebrew Sages say you do not fully contain the scriptures until you have read it 100 times. I've got many more aha's to go. LOL The HS speaks more when you are deffinately listening, most feelings one has are from the other side or it maybe just heartburn. We are instructed to align it with Torah, if not we just may fall for just any old thing. Follow instructions(Torah) and all will go well with you. Shalom Aa-right! However there are things mentioned by synode of apostles in Acts, and even by Rav Shaul. That for Gentiles are assigned only the parts of Torah which consist of forbidding <fornication(and adultery), idolatry, eating blood and strangled> - Acts 15. Moreover, Shaul says: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)and this: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. (Galatians 3:10-11)when i was in the pentecostal church, my mother would always make me feel like i had NO relation ship with YHVH whatsoever. she said i needed to cut deown on the reading and buoilt up the relation ship. tha same thing was said with the chruch people. i got so angry. that WAS how i was building my relationship with YHVH. but i didnt know how to tell them that. so i can REALLY relate with you jonotan And you ultimately left pentecostal congregation? Why? Reading and realising Word of God (and for you, even whole Torah - you may if you are an original Jew - but on the other side you haven't 3rd temple rebuilt yet, you haven't got sacrifices etc., so it's impossible) is one thing. But necessary is also to have a congregation where HS is, not a spiritually dead denomination. Extremely important. I was raised in some type of classical evangelical denomination, where HS was not taken that seriously. Even Word of God was taken there quite liberally. That was raging me when I read about 1st church with apostles, with speaking in tongues, with Ananiah and Saphira(how they ended up - it was power of HS), with healing, with preaching gospel in power of HS - that is what traditional churches lack, so even the doctrines are corrupted - it is a result that HS has flown away. So I found a new pentecostal congregation, which is certainly not messianic - it would be maybe too much expectation for country I live in. But it's very positively orientated to Israel - we are christian zionists. Also, power and annointment of HS flow. If I may advice you John, do not separate from Ministry gift you have. I did not understand Scripture that much as when I get there and received baptism in HS. The reason why I am here on the forum is that I have love for Yisrael and I believe there can be biblical cooperation. But yes - WE MUST BE UNITE IN ONE TRUE INTERPRETATION OF THE WORD. - that is, literally without any doubts. If someone don't want to surrender to any part of Bible, he has to wait for Lord's refinement - that man is currently out of trail. One believer who do not have doubts in Bible - the Word of God (You consider it entirely Word of God, don't you?) understands everything. Just want to know about Jewish traditions that can support Word, important thing they are, but Word of God, Bible - canonized, it was canonized because it's inspired, there's power of God in it (in comparison to Apocryphas') and thus, HS in it. |
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Post by John on Apr 7, 2009 13:49:00 GMT -5
i left the pentecostal church for a variety of reasons.
and pesronally, i would rather go to a spiritually dead church than one that misuses or fakes the gifts- something that MANY-maybe most- pentecostal churches do.
and i think that the messianic movement is actually very piritually atute. they worship silently, loudly, through dance, singing, etc. they are not bent on the silent extreme like catholics, nor the loud extreme like pentecostals.
again, this is only ONE of the reasons i left the pentecostal movement (spiritually; literally, it was because i live with my dad, not mom, now. if i still lived with my mom, i would bodily be going to a pentecostal chrurch, but would not be their spiritually. hhope i cleared that up).
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 8, 2009 7:33:45 GMT -5
but how do we decide which is the right interpretation? what clues from daniel can make us go for one theory or another? we need evidence for both sides. i personally dont know. but i like seeing your guy's views- helps me decide mine. What interpretation? Both! Historical and prophetical. Word of God, Bible is written for us for all times and all aions.E.g. The things in Torah which NT believers are not obliged to keep, are on the other side shadow of the things to come. They are just 'types'. As we can say, we do not live in times of Nabukadnessar, but some politicians, if they have the same spirit, Word of God may show us them as Nabukadnessar. The next thing - wonderful how Word of God is that much linked together in all parts. Because it's inspired Word of God by HS, every detail is important and somehow useful. Do not marvel that Yeshua said: not a smallest yod may fall from the Scriptures. Also in OT, there are many spiritual principles. You know that Jesabel was an evil queen infiltrated into Israel through marriage with Achab. The same spirit exists today and has some specific strategy. NT believers understand spiritual principles. In Revelation 2nd and 3rd Chapter, we are told about spirits - of Balaam, Jesabel, about Nicolaitans etc. Also, Nabukadnessar, persian kings desiring worship, as well as Antioch Epifanes, Roman Emperors and, in till nowadays, Popes are 'types' or Antichrist. They all hold the same spirit. The same is with current 'Catholic Mary' - it's nothing more than heathen woman deity - the same as Astarot, Semiramis, Diana and other heathen woman deities with child. They are together one Babylonian spirit - "Queen of Heavens", mentioned in Jeremiahu 44. So I believe Daniel reffered to kingdoms of Babylon, Persia and Medes, Greece and Roman Empire - which are slowly returning into scene in last days as we see it in Revelation - in figure of the Beast. I believe that evil king mentioned by Daniel, who stopped the daily sacrifice and brought abominable idol to the temple - was Antioch Epifanes, but it cannot be him only. It must refer also to the last emperor and the last dictator - the evil ruler Antichrist, who will stand against Yeshua himself, as we see it in Revelation, in Harmageddon. Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.Antichrist will hold all the signs of spirit found in Nimrod(he possibly started it all), some egyptian Pharaohs, Nabukadnessar (golden image - image of the Beast, desire to be worshipped), persian rulers(forbidding Daniel to pray to anyone than to king), Antioch Epifanes (exalting himself, putting idol into temple), Roman Emperors (claiming to be highest 'Gods', desire to be worshipped, calling himself 'Pontifex Maximus' - the highest priest, ruling over all kings - and so calling self 'King of kings'), Popes (calling self 'Pontifex Maximus', calling self 'Holy Father', ruling over all kings) This is thing what Antioch Epifanes or any earthly king were not ever able to do. No one had ever stood against Prince of princes, Yeshua, himself in His whole power and glory. So - history with spiritual reference. |
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Post by John on Apr 8, 2009 13:52:57 GMT -5
so you ascribe dual meanings to daniels writings. that resembles the p'shat and remez...
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Post by Jonatan on Apr 9, 2009 8:09:25 GMT -5
so you ascribe dual meanings to daniels writings. that resembles the p'shat and remez... Sorry for such - maybe 'silly' questions, but What are p'shat and remez? Sounds I'll have to study Judaistics more. Shalom |
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