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Post by John on Apr 2, 2009 16:42:38 GMT -5
This is a debate among MANY messianic jews.
Should we use the talmud and recognize it with any level of authority.
i think we should. in fact, i think EVERY book of the bible should be regarded with some type of authority, even if it was not included in the canon. (except a few books, like gnostic books).
so if books like enoch and the book of Yasher should be regarded with some type of authorit, how much more should the talmud, mishnah and other commentaries by our fathers be regarded with authority?
Post away, my friends... i am preetty sure this one will spark up some debate.
PS this site- hebrew4christians.com - has an article on this if you are interested.
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Post by tonga on Apr 14, 2009 17:22:17 GMT -5
Messianics do recognize the Talmud whether they admit it or not.
Many of the things they practice are not explicitly stated/explained
in the Tanach and they rely upon Talmud and rabbinical law.
For instance, it does not state in the Tanach to light shabbas candles,
bake challah, to wear a yarmulke.
It does mention tzitzit, tefillin, and mezuzah but does not explain
how they should be made or used. Any Messianic that does what
Jews do regarding these is following Talmudic/Rabbinical law.
This is one of the bones I have to pick with Messianics and it
must be a great source of confusion for themselves. They will
say the Talmud is "man made", and then right around and follow
much it. But they pick and choose what to follow....follow it all,
or follow none of it.
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 18:06:15 GMT -5
why can we not pick and choose what to follow kn the talmud? the fact is that it IS manmade and that some will turn out to be holy, but other to be pagan ideas that are far off from the truth.
Shaul pulled the truth out of some pagan poems, and Y'hudah pulled a verse of truth out of 1 enoch.
so your argument is worthless. some of the things in the talmud are holy ideas... howveer, there are some things in the talmud that we need to beware of.
btw- welcome to the forum. hope to see you post alot
shalom- john (who is a messianic)
PS also realize that Yeshua had no problem with a person practicing theholy things in the talmud and oral law-- but he did not consider breaking oral laws a sin, and he considered practicing oral law OVER written law a sin.
he also made clear that even written ritual laws in the Torah are to be abrogated by certain things (ie, kashrut is abrogated when dining with gentiles, or hellenized jews).
so you [glow=red,2,300]DO NOT [/glow]have to practice oral law by mj standards... but it is traditional to do so, and for some the rituals might be a way to draw them closer to YHVH.
also, the talmud does not say you have to wear a kippah/yarmule either-- that is traditional. it is part o the jewish culture, not part of religious duties. and should we change the way tzitzit worn or the way t'fillin are made simply because they are in the talmud, even though there is nothing wrong with the talmudic interpretation? should we really go through so much trouble to break away from rabbinic judaism when the judaism Yeshua taught was very close and even he followed some of the traditions?
[glow=red,2,300]again, your argument is built on sand and right now it is crashing down from the waves of truth washing on the shore. [/glow]
any more bones you have to pick? i have a few chicken bones on the plate i just ate my kosher food from. lol.
shalom (again)
john
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Post by tonga on Apr 14, 2009 18:53:49 GMT -5
why can we not pick and choose what to follow kn the talmud? Because I consider it hypocritical. If you rely on the rabbis on issue A, why would you then turn around and say "I am not going to follow what they say on issue B because it is all man made". Messianics really should determine their own halachah and develope their own traditions based on their understanding of Torah and what they think Jesus said, rather than relying upon rabbinical/Talmudic law. Not for us Jews it is not, although I understand Christians do believe that. Which further mystifies me, why follow something if you believe it's man made? how can it be holy if it is all man made? How do you know which are holy ideas and which are not? Such as? Thanks! I don't have a lot of time for forums, but I'll try to drop by once in awhile, that is until I wear out my welcome, LOL. Obviously I'm not a Messianic and my views won't mesh with 99% of what I see here. But I'm not here to dissuade anyone from their faith, I just find it interesting to learn what others believe. So he took it upon himself to teach that Torah should be broken? |
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 18:58:49 GMT -5
by the Ruach hakodesh. also by comparing it to scripture. if it contradicts scripture then you should not follow it. if it does not then we need to let the ruach hakodesh guide us.
ummm--- the bible was written by man, yet it is holy. a talit is made by a man, yet it is holy. etc.
Yeshua himself followed some rabbinic traditions.
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Post by tonga on Apr 14, 2009 20:11:16 GMT -5
I presume you are quite young, so let me give you a few pointers
from an old timer.
No one likes to be insulted, belittled, embarrassed, mocked or made fun of.
I would humbly suggest you go back and learn from the Torah
on how to treat others.
It is also not a good way to grow your forum.
I won't be back, but I wish you success here.
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 20:36:31 GMT -5
umm.... in what way did i insult, belittle, embarrass or mock you?
and did not shaul publicly rebuke kefa?
you need not take things so personally, which is what i was afraid you would do- that is why i made that final note in my colorful post.
but sorry that i offended you, and i hope you change your mind.
what are you if you are not messianic?
but if that is the way Torah is to be practiced, than technically you are not breaking it. if you circum cise on the sabbath you are not breaking Torah, but fulfilling it are you not? Yeshua was showing other things in torah that are like this.
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Post by Never Looking Back on Apr 14, 2009 21:20:51 GMT -5
umm.... in what way did i insult, belittle, embarrass or mock you? and did not shaul publicly rebuke kefa? you need not take things so personally, which is what i was afraid you would do- that is why i made that final note in my colorful post. but sorry that i offended you, and i hope you change your mind. what are you if you are not messianic? but if that is the way Torah is to be practiced, than technically you are not breaking it. if you circum cise on the sabbath you are not breaking Torah, but fulfilling it are you not? Yeshua was showing other things in torah that are like this. From what I gathered from Tonga's posts, he/she is Jewish, and does not believe in Jesus. Not everyone who reads these forums believes in Jesus. Just as not everyone here would classify themselves as a Messianic Jew. We all need to be careful how we come across to others on this forum. As a rule, I like to follow what one of my favorite authors wrote regarding the standard of love. Instead of asking whether or not something is lawful, we should ask whether or not what we say/do is truly loving to the other person. Does it build them up? If it does not, it would be better not to say it. Yes, this even applies to sarcasism. You should take into consideration how your comment might make another person feel. If you knew that your comments might be taken in a negative light, you should not have said it. The comment did no one any good. |
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Post by John on Apr 14, 2009 21:22:56 GMT -5
thank you NLB (this is not sarcastic). i will take your advice.
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Jeordin
B'nai Elohim
GREEN
Posts: 107
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Post by Jeordin on Apr 15, 2009 10:25:43 GMT -5
Gosh john your such a donkey. Ha I almost fell out of my chair laughing
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