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Post by John on Sept 3, 2009 12:13:24 GMT -5
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Post by itiswritten on Sept 4, 2009 18:02:46 GMT -5
I think that scripture clearly supports this. However, there are several variations of the theology among different groups. There are some things that I do not go along with that I have heard people say. There are certain things that are clear though. Israel was divided into two houses. The 10 northern tribes (The House of Israel) were taken into Assyrian captivity. Not all returned. The House of Judah or southern kingdom was taken into Babylonian captivity in a couple of waves. Not all of them returned.
In James 1:1, we see that at that time there were still people of the twelve tribes that were scattered. Then there was a huge scattering in 70ad at the destruction of the temple. There have also been many other scattering such as the exile by Spain and others. There are passages of scripture that really make no sense without understanding some about the two houses such as the well known passage below.
Ezekiel 37
1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.[/b][/i]
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Post by John on Sept 4, 2009 19:07:39 GMT -5
i agree with your rationale. i just dont support the whole of two-house doctrine. but yeah, there are two houses. but the whole thing about them being divided and having to be rejoined and such, and how the B'rit Chadasha is only for the house of Judah... that all is theological mumbo jumbo making no sense at all, and i use the term "theological" loosely.
but there are definitely two houses in Israel, and since there was so much interbreeding between the tribes that the term "israelite" and jew" became interchangable.
i take it as a fact, not a foundation for theology in most cases. God deals with Israel as a whole, not in a divided way.
shalom
PS- the tribe of Levi is part of ephraim right?
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Post by itiswritten on Sept 5, 2009 0:57:14 GMT -5
i agree with your rationale. i just dont support the whole of two-house doctrine. but yeah, there are two houses. Sorry to break it up this way, but I wanted to respond to both of these points. We agree that Israel was divided into two houses. Scripture is also clear that YHVH will cause them to be rejoined once again and they will no longer be two nations, but one. Go back and reread the whole chapter of Ezekiel 37 slowly. Both the dry bones and the two sticks deal directly with this subject. Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. I have never heard anyone say that the Brit Chadasha is only for the house of Judah. However the Brit Chadasha was made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, not the Gentiles. Gentiles of course can be part of this covenant too. Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:[ Yes, it often used interchangeably, but I find that many times that creates confusion. I have often heard people talking about the "Jews" in the wilderness and such. "Jew" which comes from Judah was only one tribe and became head of the house of Judah, but there are others. In the strict sense we could say it like this: All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. Or put another way, all roosters are chickens, but not all chickens are roosters. Yes, I'm sure there was a lot of intermarriages among the tribes. If it is a fact or truth, then it would have to factor into proper theology. In the scripture, God deals with Israel collectively and as individual tribes. (Check out Gen. 48-49 and notice the time frame for these prophecies.) He also deals with Israel as one people in places and in others He deals with the House of Israel and the House of Judah separately. If you read through Hosea with this in mind, you will see a lot of contrast in the way the House of Judah and House of Israel (Ephraim) are dealt with. Ephraim, of course being the head of the House of Israel. Here are just a few examples: Hosea 5:5
And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity: Judah also shall fall with them.
Hosea 5:12
Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
Hosea 5:13
When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
Hosea 5:14
For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
Hosea 6:4
O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
Hosea 10:11
And Ephraim is as an heifer that is taught, and loveth to tread out the corn; but I passed over upon her fair neck: I will make Ephraim to ride; Judah shall plow, and Jacob shall break his clods.
Hosea 11:12
Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.
Zechariah 9:13
When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
In the encampments Levi dwelt surrounded by the other tribes. They were close to the Mishkan. Of course they had no inheritance like the other tribes. It appears that probably a lot of Levi ended up with the House of Judah, but in all likelyhood Levi became scattered among the other tribes and scattered throughout the earth like the rest. Notice how both of these books begin: 1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
I hope this helps a bit. PS check this out. www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRgs9LizqM8 |
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Post by John on Sept 5, 2009 9:58:11 GMT -5
thank you so much... what you say makes sense.
but what about ephraimaite theology that claims that the gentiles are the 10 lost tribes. that i utterly reject. i think that all the covenants were made with Isra'el and that gentiles can be graftedin WITH the jews, but they do NOT REPLACE the jews, neither ARE they the jews. (i am using caps for emphasis.)
its kindof like replacement theology in reverse.
shalom- john
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Post by itiswritten on Sept 5, 2009 18:05:50 GMT -5
I think that some groups push the Ephramite thing a little far. However, clearly many of the tribes were dispersed and mingled among the Gentiles and for all practical purposes became Gentiles. In many cases, because of persecution, people changed their names and stopped following the Torah completely. After a generation or two, the children no longer knew the truth of who they were.
John 7:35
Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?[/u][/i]
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Post by John on Sept 6, 2009 8:55:17 GMT -5
i see. makes sense. thank you itiswritten... one more thing: can you give me a list of verses that have to do with two house theology.
and is two house theology common amoung the non-messianic people?
shalom
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Post by itiswritten on Sept 6, 2009 17:12:54 GMT -5
i see. makes sense. thank you itiswritten... one more thing: can you give me a list of verses that have to do with two house theology. and is two house theology common amoung the non-messianic people? shalom I don't have a list of verses pertaining to the Two Houses, but when something comes to mind, I'll try to remember to post them here. There are really quite a few. One thing that I would recommend for starters is reading Gen 48-49 particularly 48 in discussing Ephraim and Manasseh the sons of Joseph. Also, you probably know this, but Samaria became the capital of the ten northern tribes. This being the case, and understanding the significance of this will add depth to readings that focus upon Samaria. Also a lot of the book of Hosea deals with the two houses. There are many references in the NT such as Y'shua's repeated statements about coming for the "lost sheep of the Israel." From my experience most denominations don't really have any understanding of the two houses or the lost tribes. The Church of God denomination is about the only non-Messianic group that I know of that has some understanding of this. However many of that group it seems has now moved over and joined Messianic assemblies. |
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Post by John on Sept 6, 2009 17:43:18 GMT -5
okay thank you.
yes, i came from church of God/ assemblies of God church over to MJ. what do rabbinc and karaite jews think?
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Post by itiswritten on Sept 7, 2009 16:59:56 GMT -5
okay thank you. yes, i came from church of God/ assemblies of God church over to MJ. what do rabbinc and karaite jews think? You know I'm not entirely sure about that. Apparently there are some rabbinic that have understanding of this and are looking for the lost tribes. By and large and I haven't read much on this topic from them though. I have no idea regarding what the Karites think on this matter. |
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Post by John on Sept 7, 2009 17:07:44 GMT -5
okay. thanks again.
shalom
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
BLUE
Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Sept 24, 2009 7:03:41 GMT -5
According to what I hear and see, all that you have written, greatly gives sense of all I have read in prophets.
Yea - it comprises very important prophetic theme such as return of all House of Israel into their land, to gather them from all the nations and bring them home. Jews have not problem, because they trace their bloodline easily, and Hitler could knew only about Jews during holocaust.
So it gives sense that many people among nations don't even know they are hebrews in blood from dispersions, either by Assyrian captivity, or Babylonian or by Romans.
This is really strange question - could it be that we, thinking we are just Gentiles, will find out one day that there is an ancient hebrew bloodline in us? If that's so, God's plan for us may be that we should return to Israel and thus fulfill the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 and many more.
As I have heard, there are projects that trace people with Israeli blood, to return the lost of tribe Manasseh.
Also they search in DNA for Levites - cos only Levites are allowed to perform temple sacrifices when the 3rd temple is built.
And now, there are preparations for Levitical ministry, including menorahs, levitical robes, sacrifices and other needed apparatuss.
Even that the ark of covenant has been found but kept in secret for now.
What do you know about this?
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Post by John on Sept 24, 2009 20:00:54 GMT -5
its not very reliable.
shalom
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