crosses in life

[neptune]

there are crosses in life such as lamine which is the dna in us that holds us to gether it is the shape of a cross then the ceneter of a galaxy whixh shows a cross are these signs or just nothing of importance?

[itiswritten]

In case anyone is wondering what "laminin" is, here is one of many links with info on the subject.

www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/l/laminin.htm

Interestingly, the last letter of the Hebrew alephbet is tav which was in it's ancient form written as an x or cross. Meanings of this letter include cross, mark, seal and sign.

www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Tav/tav.html

Many of the things in creation are clearly constructed according to a mathematical pattern. I believe that there are amazing truths to be seen within the creation that declare the manifold wisdom of the Most High Elohim (G-d).

If you find laminin interesting, you may also find this interesting.

goldennumber.net/

[John]

i dont think that laminin is one of them. the sign of the cross is a pagan symbol. plus, it is a symbol. we may use symbols to represent truths within our religion, but YHVH Elohim Tva'ot is pure truth- he doesnt need the truth reduced to symbols.

anyway., i would appreciate it if you put these under the topics that they apply to. i will move both the threads.

shalom- john

[anochria]

Why do you call the sign of the cross a pagan symbol?

[Jonatan]

Cross is symbol of death, crucifixion. Same as if the symbol was a guillotine, or a death-chair. Sounds odd that we should be "constructed" by the Lord of such shapes or what. IMO it says rather more about destruction than creation.

Itswritten: Keith, I see that as artist, you have found your topic, haven't you? You have nice gallery of landscapes and other stuff.
Golden number - the constant coefficient that can be observed in whole nature, something I know from aesthetics and history of art. My secondary school was a school of applied art.

[John]

the golden number; Phi. i looked into it. its also called the golden ratio and such.

but as for crosses in life, the world always had laminin, but the cross meant nothing prior to the crucifixion of Yeshua. plus, the cross looked like a CAP "T", not a lowercase one. ("t")

shalom- john

[anochria]

jonatan wrote:

Cross is symbol of death, crucifixion. Same as if the symbol was a guillotine, or a death-chair. Sounds odd that we should be "constructed" by the Lord of such shapes or what. IMO it says rather more about destruction than creation.

How does that equate to pagan?

Paul says the cross has "power" and is a "message" in 1 Cor. 1:17-18. In Gal. 6:14, he says we should "boast" in it. In Phil. 3:18, he says many live as "enemies to the cross". I'd hate to be identified as such . In Col. 2:15, Paul says the cross is rather a triumph.

In Galatians 5:11, he says it is an offense, for presumably precisely the reason you're citing- it's scandalous that the savior of mankind should have died in such a way.

But the author of Hebrews indicated that we should identify with that scandal:

Hebrews 13:

12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.

[anochria]

As to any possible pagan symbolic association, there's nothing inherently wrong with such associations, as we've discussed elsewhere.

[John]

no there is not. however i am sayin that just becasue laminin is in the shape of a cross does not mean anything. one of those reasons is that it is a pagan symbol. if we are to say that because our religions symbol is found in nature that our religion is true than we are making pagan religions true as the cross was not a symbol for christianity for a while.

i am also saying that the cross means nothing. it is a symbol. laminin and nature forms shapes. it just so happens that it is in the shape o a cross. however, this means nothing, as nature is not bound to reducing God to symbols (as we humans have to to understand him - for our psyche is limited).

that is all i was trying to say, answering to the original question of the thread starting post.

shalom- john

[anochria]

Agreed. I don't put much stock in such appearances in nature.

[neptune]

wow didnt no a little question would get so many replys lol and i see what u mean join a ty fopr the post itiswritten o and ill be 15 sunday =] o i must find more questions for you to anwswere
<(<>.<>)>

[Jonatan]

Take it easy! Piece of cake..., it's certain that by the cross symbol for christians they remember Yeshua's act of salvation, but being a shape of laminin, may it mean nothing.
I repeat, cross says more about death, crucifixion - generally, whether someone applies it to Christ or not. But yeah, one fact for christian mysticists and catholics, CROSS DOES NOT SYMBOLIZE CHRIST! It may symbolize ONLY HIS SUFFERING.
And btw., symbol interpreting is individual. Everyone applies it to another thing.

anochria wrote:

How does that equate to pagan?

Paul says the cross has "power" and is a "message" in 1 Cor. 1:17-18. In Gal. 6:14, he says we should "boast" in it. In Phil. 3:18, he says many live as "enemies to the cross". I'd hate to be identified as such . In Col. 2:15, Paul says the cross is rather a triumph.

In Galatians 5:11, he says it is an offense, for presumably precisely the reason you're citing- it's scandalous that the savior of mankind should have died in such a way.

But the author of Hebrews indicated that we should identify with that scandal:

Hebrews 13:

12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.

Quite ok, anochria, no problem with the cross as long as it is written. ( Lol, Keith, you have such a nick that sometimes it sounds like it should be adressed to you. - You have a REALLY GOOD NICK)

As you've said, anochria, we should boast with His cross. Right. But WHY MAY WE boast with the cross on which Yeshua died? Because He was raised, and not only that He died for our sins.

Everyone who is not born-again must first die with Yeshua on the cross - must die unto sins and old nature and THEN have the spirit ressurected in form of new life, born-again .

As you see, cross wouldn't mean any victory if Christ wasn't ressurected.

[John]

thats what many chrsitians try to say: the cross is not a symbol of or persecution like our forfathers tried to make it. it is a symbol of lifee- for it would mean nothing without the resurrection.

judaisms "sacred chai" stresses life. those who are christians would do well to do the same.

and bunny boy (lol):

Happy birthday to you! happy birthday to you! happy birthday dear neptune! happy birthday to you.

]i know its late, but it will suffice.

[Jonatan]

Cross is the symbol of crucificion, guillotine symbol of beheading, death-chair symbol of electro-chair death penalty, aren't they?

I have no idea who invented the cross symbol to be a symbol of life.
But I agree that it has something common with pagan mythology - and thus to be pagan symbol - to be the same as egyptian Ankh - maybe that's why they supposed it to be symbol of life?

[John]

i dont care what the symbol used to mean as long as it represents something wholesome NOW. and even now the cross is seen as a symbol oc persecution by jews, and a symbol of the crusades, anti-semetism, and false doctrines, catholic monopoly on the christian faith, etc.

so now i suggest we find a new symbol because the jewish star to the christians is seen also as a symbol of persecution (early christianity). etc, etc.

so the new symbol: chai, the messianic seal, a NEWER symbol that has no ancient roots.

i suggest not using the magen david with a grafted in cross because that is offensive to jews and some christians, and it makes MJ seem like a combo of the two when really it is judaism. it has beliefs borrowed by christians, beliefs borrowed by rabbinic judaism, while all three (MJ RJ non- RJ and Xtianity) stemmed from a "proto judaism." actually, islam stemmed from judaism earlier as well.

there is more for me to say but i wish to have tact.

shalom

[Jonatan]

Maybe better not to use any symbols as long as anyone can understand it different way and for this it may be offensive for someone while acceptable and fine for someone else.

But concerning magen david, I'll gladly use that. Christians have to remember "who are their daddies". Many pentecostals (even in my denomination) now proudly use magen david. Only anti-semetic stream of christianity looks at it as an offense.

[John]

Maybe better not to use any symbols as long as anyone can understand it different way and for this it may be offensive for someone

vs.

But concerning magen david, I'll gladly use that... Only anti-semetic stream of christianity looks at it as an offense.

ummm- i think there is a contradiction.

there are some who claim that the magen david came from pagan roots as well.

[Jonatan]

Well, maybe better not to use any symbols BUT IF WE HAVE TO then magen david would be the most accurate.

Yeah, I also heard about that hexastar should have pagan roots, but check this:

www.clarion-call.org/yeshua/star/star.htm

Apparently they give arguments why it shouldn't be paganic, cos it wasn't a religious symbol, but warfare symbol. Check and read.

[John]

yeah- there is a lot behind all symbols. in all reality, the islamic symbol: from moon-worship; the christian cross: from gnosticism and ancient babylonian "mystery" religions; jewish symbol: pagan symbol used especially in alchemy.

on top of that, all of our days of the week are named after germanic gods.

but the fact is this: dont NOT use symbols if they are offerred, for then we would be acting as if the symbol had some power of its own- and yet, GOD is the only one with power.

shalom

[Jonatan]

Right! Otherwise it would sound idolatric. As Isaiah says: "Do not fear them. They can't do evil, but they can do good".

It just have only representative function to let people know who do we belong and what do we claim we are.

but the fact is this: dont NOT use symbols if they are offerred, for then we would be acting as if the symbol had some power of its own- and yet, GOD is the only one with power.

Ehh, srry! I wrote to USE symbols? No, I meant to WEAR symbols - e.g. magen as a necklace. Just representation, not counting it as something that would help supernaturally. As Messianics we cannot be idolatric!

About pagan roots: Have you noticed (from the link on clarion-call I posted above) that the symbol is not the pagan "two triangles", NOT STAR, BUT SHIELD of David which has it's shape just only because the letter DALET in ancient hebrew looked as triangle.