Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Jun 29, 2009 6:51:08 GMT -5
Now, there's maybe a quite bitting or harmful thread for someone, but many christians and possibly messianics say that Judaism - now, it is meant only for today's Judaism or the whole - medieval Judaism till today. No one says that the correct branch of Judaism which all the ancient patriarchs and heroes of faith lived in, including Yeshua and disciples would be that kind of antichrist Judaism.
It is said that Judaism without receiving New covenant in Yeshua as the Messiah is overflown by the spirit of antichrist, what reveals in extra scriptures like Mishna or Talmud, that are without Messiah, and without HS and thus works of man.
What do you say and think on this?
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Jun 29, 2009 12:11:02 GMT -5
Um, well, I'd just say that anything anti-christ is "antichrist".
From my perspective, the key powers of antichrist were exhibited in the 1st century, as imperial Rome and apostate Israel.
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Post by John on Jun 29, 2009 12:16:38 GMT -5
i think that christianity and modern judaism are both false.
i think messianic judaism is the real judaism from Yah from the start of Yeshua till now. both modern and messsianic judaism sprouted from the same judais before Jesus, but messianic judaism is, i think, the judaism that Yah has revealed. i think that after avraham, many believed in judaism. however, when mosheh came, only those who accepted his judaism (the judaism that Yah has revealed) were following the real judasim. if some only followed what avraham had to offer, but ignored mosheh, than they are following a false judaism.
i think that the modern jews are those that rejected a priest, king and prophet much greater than mosheh. i also think that messianic jews are jews who are following the true judaism of Yah.
as for christianity, i thijnk that in the begiining, it was a good thing, but it later came to mean anti-semetic gentiles breaking away fromjudaism.
you must realize though, that The Way considered itself a jewish religion. so to say judaism is false is to deny what Yah has given us. however, there are forms of judaism- the dominant forms sadly- that are false, just like there are forms of christianity that are wrong and right.
shalom- john
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Post by thevicarsson on Jun 29, 2009 12:50:44 GMT -5
christianity isn't a false religion its an alternative religion. Evangelical christianity is a bit false as they are very far away from judaism. And i'll admit that christianity is a bit far away from judaism but its not meant to keep all the jewish values because the christians listened to their leader(christ if you hadn't worked it out) who told us that many jewish traditions were simply wrong and false.
And in response to judaism being antichrist, no of course judaisms not anti christ it just doesn't believe christ is messiah they believe him to be a prophet but not a messiah, he's no more important than moses in judaism but christianity doesn't see it that way they have him right up there as son of god and we won't underestimate that he is the son of god.
*sorry if i offended anyone when writing this but its an expression of an opinion.(applies to both paragraphs)
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Post by John on Jun 29, 2009 22:21:04 GMT -5
Yes.. yeshua informed us that many of rabbinic judaisms customs were wrong. however, judaism itself is not wrong. it is the cultural things that come along with it.
only a jew is expected to follow the talmud and oral law when it does not conflict with the higher laws of Torah or Torah itself. also, we must understand theat the talmud gives possible interpretations, along with midrash and such. however, that doesnt mean we need to follow it like the rabinc jews where they put it up there with the mitzvot of Torah.
also, we must realize that gentiles MUST follow Torah, but they can follow other things in their own culture. they can be part of the nation of Yisrael, but they dont have to become jewish and are obligated NOT to. they are Yisraelites, but not jews.
as for christianity... there are people in it that are not going to hell. however, the religion is. it is simply not true. the leading denominations at least. (there are some that are correct in almost if not everything)
shalom- john
shalom- john
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Jun 30, 2009 8:04:52 GMT -5
Ok. By meaning 'christians', I didn't meant Catholicism, because it's more into heathenism. But ok., are we, christians (it means that we believe The Way, but we are not Jewish), Israelites? Did I understood you well? Israelites, while non-Jewish?
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Post by John on Jun 30, 2009 9:46:32 GMT -5
in all technicality you could be called Yisraelites- you belong to the nation of Yisrael. you are grafted into the olive tree but you can still remain a gentile (a wild branch). you do need to get circumcised, but this needs to happen after salvation. and it does not make one a jew. also, if we get circumciseed with the wrong intentions or under the wrong gospel, than HaMashiach will profit us nothing.
Shaul put a lot of importance on circumcisio. he wouldnt let people who represent him get circumcised until they were ready spiritually and understood why they are doing it. the avrahamic cov't is very important to avraham, mentioning it in galatians (in practically the whole book), and romans and such... core theological cov't. and since circumcision was the seal of that cov't,m of course he regarded it as worthy of very meticulous preperations.
anyway, back on topic.
roman catholocism is more of a cult/business now more than ever.
protestant christianity failed because it still held antisimetic values and would not give up any core doctrines no matter what the bible said. they ere ready to break away from catholocism, but not accept some ideas of the bible.
for eample martin luther called the epistle of james a 'strawy epistle' or and epistle of straw, compared to the pauline letters. This is because Yaakov seemed to teach salvation by works, and martin luther didnt like that. instead of accepting that Yaakov taught this, or finding out a way taht he didnt, he simply- in theory- threw this epistle out the window and never used it. he would have not accepteed it in the canon had he had the choice.
now, some protestant christians and catholics will go to heaven. however, the movement as a whole will go to hell, a temporary fire... and then it will go to everlasting fire in geh-hinnom.
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Post by thevicarsson on Jun 30, 2009 13:05:47 GMT -5
John, you seem stuck between christianity and judaism lost between the two, you seem to believe in god and Jesus but can't find the religion for you.
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Post by John on Jun 30, 2009 15:39:50 GMT -5
i like judasim.but i still have ties to hristianity... seeing as how i live in a christian husehold.
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Jul 1, 2009 7:03:31 GMT -5
In matter of religion, I think that the one way to go to heaven is just to personally recieve the Messiah, and Father the God of Israel as the one true God with all His sayings, believing whole Bible without any religion (and of course, act in that).
Relationship with Lord isn't religion and anyone in any denomination can go to heaven if the person follows the only truth in Bible - Word of God. But yeah, of course, that person must follow Word of God more than doctrines of a denomination he/she lives in.
For example, I consider myself super-denominational, wanting not to give myself a sticker of any religion or denomination, just servant of God, no matter what denomination do I visit. Every denomination has some flaw - one can have smaller, the second can have bigger - but if we serve in the denomination, we may reform it by our lives and point at the problems to be solved.
Sh'lom.
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Post by John on Jul 1, 2009 11:31:38 GMT -5
the reason why i reject christianity: they say the law is no longer needed to be followed. however, it is said that we are LYARS if we dont have works after recieving the spirit. (not the the works saved us, but that they are proof that we are saved. they are called living works that save becuase it is Yeshua working through us, not us, because we are dead unto our selves and alive in Yeshua).
so if a christian openly rejects the law than the spirit is not with him. i know people dont like to hear that, but thats what James and John said (1 john)
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Jul 1, 2009 15:25:00 GMT -5
Good works are not necessarily synonymous with the Mosaic law.
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Post by John on Jul 2, 2009 12:14:31 GMT -5
however, we know from the context of Yaakov that they ARE. he constatly refers to the royal and complete law. this is the fulfilled Torah that Yeshua spoke of in mt 5:18 (i think thats the verse).
besides, the law DOES call for good works, even if it does not specifically mention them. also, Yaakov was found to be the head of The Way (ha derekh; kai hodos). most historians now believe that Yaakov was the head of the temple. he never ever denied the law, although historians realize that he was a messianic.
modern analysis of the B'rit hadashah writings arae now viewing Yshua WITHIN judaism, not outside of it. now, they are viewing The Way as more of a sect of judaism, not a breakoff of it. and they are advancing becasue of this, much faster than they ever have before. and whats more than this is it is all based of 1st century documents and such.
the thing is is that Judaism is still the religion of Yah, but the mainstraeam judaism is a breakoff of the religion of God, not the othr way around. we continue, as messianic jews, the true judaism.
shalom- john
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Post by thevicarsson on Jul 2, 2009 15:21:18 GMT -5
John so you are Christian by family, but you feel deep down that you are a Jew. The thing is you seem to believe in Christ, but if your a Jew you are waiting for a Christ to come.
Anyway onto the actual disscussion I do understand Jonathon's view you do not need to be tied to a denomination to go to heaven and be beside god.
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Post by John on Jul 2, 2009 15:42:26 GMT -5
no vicars son. we are all jewws by blood, my family. howeever, they accept christianity sa their religion, and deny their culture. i studied genealogy and realized that i am a jew (my ancestor is actually the leader of the reform movement, avraham geieger). however, i still ive in a christian family, so i am limited on what i can and cannot do (ie, i am probably going to be stukck celebrating halloween this year or something).
you do NOT need to be tied to any denomination to go to heaven- this i agree. however, judaism is NOT an antichrist religion. now, the mainstream judaism IS false, as well as some christian denominations. but the name of the religion of Yah IS judaism, and we are still to follow his Torah.
shalom- john
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Jul 3, 2009 10:37:14 GMT -5
AMEN! I hope you John don't consider me that kind of 'christian' denying the Law. I fully agree with you concerning faith and acts. John so you are Christian by family, but you feel deep down that you are a Jew. The thing is you seem to believe in Christ, but if your a Jew you are waiting for a Christ to come. Anyway onto the actual disscussion I do understand Jonathon's view you do not need to be tied to a denomination to go to heaven and be beside god. vicarsson: well, even we that are not Jews by origin await Christ to come - only this time it is His second coming. The problem Jews had in time of Jesus was that they were awaiting Him to come as Son of David - which means that not to sacrifice Himself, but to take the kingdom and reign forever. But this is still the matter of future. no vicars son. we are all jewws by blood, my family. howeever, they accept christianity sa their religion, and deny their culture. i studied genealogy and realized that i am a jew (my ancestor is actually the leader of the reform movement, avraham geieger). however, i still ive in a christian family, so i am limited on what i can and cannot do (ie, i am probably going to be stukck celebrating halloween this year or something). you do NOT need to be tied to any denomination to go to heaven- this i agree. however, judaism is NOT an antichrist religion. now, the mainstream judaism IS false, as well as some christian denominations. but the name of the religion of Yah IS judaism, and we are still to follow his Torah. shalom- john John: I understand that messianism or true christianity we live in should be understood as a sect within Judaism, not a new religion. This is what I agree with ! However, can we, who are not Jews by origin, call our religion Judaism, instead of Christianity? |
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Post by John on Jul 3, 2009 20:18:09 GMT -5
YES. yes, you can. judaism is the religion, not the ethnicity. by following judaism, you are grafted into the olive tree, but as a branch you are STILL GENTILES (goyim).
you can be a gentile and follow judaism. you are a proselyte to judaism, a part of Yisrael, but you are still gentiles. the religion is no diffferent for a jew and a non-jew. ONE WAY... The Way (the original name of the apostolic jewish sect).
shalom- john
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Post by thevicarsson on Jul 10, 2009 16:24:17 GMT -5
Because of the stereotypical concepts surrounding Judaism i think that a new religion combining the bits that you guys believe in would be a good step. And on that halloween comment, i'm christian and we do not celebrate halloween. We believe that it is not linked to christianity and is actually against our religion.
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Post by John on Jul 10, 2009 17:14:10 GMT -5
i agree with that religious view on halloween. look at the thread titiled "christmas, easter, and halloween."
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Jul 11, 2009 3:49:41 GMT -5
John wrote:
What do you mean by "head of the Temple"? And which scholars are among the "most" you're referring to?
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