Great Tribulation - REVISION NEEDED!

[Jonatan]

It led me to start a thread about my early discovery - thanx to Lord He makes me discern! Glory to Him and not to myself.

This time, it will be about the period or term which is often called by theologians "The Great Tribulation" or "(zero article) Great Tribulation" -
- NOTE to Keith, Itswritten: On MTF, I remember your point of view on Great Trib. (with zero art.) and not "The" Great Trib. as you posted before - It was interesting and something new to me, cos I never realised such matter before you mentioned it.

Now I'll explain why: Although being concerned with eschatology as my primary aim besides general truths of Word of God, I wasn't much concerned with idea of "Great trib." as it is usually called. There are always things a man is concerned more with and things that man is concerned less with. And all what I've been concerned less with, I just accepted from others - what do other theologians and some "biblical teachers" said about it, without having time to revise it. - That obviously lead to blind submission to doctrines which may not be based on truth of the Word, but only men and their prejudices.

I think that term GREAT TRIBULATION, described in Matthew 24 (from verse 15), Mark 13 (from v.14) and elsewhere is not understood well possibly among many theologians and should be revised!!! How, and why?

Because just this is the stumbling rock standing between two theological extremes, made in eschatologic beliefs.
Because of this, many are divided into: Pre-tribulationists, Mid-tribulationists and Post-tribulationists.

Problem is: BUT WHEN ACTUALLY IS THE ESCHATOLOGICAL TRIBULATION?

As I have found, many people box the Tribulation to whole 3,5 year period of Antichrist's reign. And this is the standing obstacle that cause eschatology not to be easily understood - I need to disperse it.

As I have found out, and have downloaded a site from Ken Raggio about ressurection and rapture (because it hanged as an advertisement at the top of the forum)...

kenraggio.com/KRPN-WhenWillTheRaptureTakePlace.htm

... and revised it, I found there many things that are truth and on the other hand, things that are wrong cos it was not revealed enough to him.

By his site I discovered that he doesn't use to teach about rapture that should take place before 3,5 year period of Antichrist's reign, not taking into consideration how much does the 7th trumpet says about rapture in combination with Paul's statements (1.Cor. 15:51-54) and the angel in Revelation with book, standing with one foot on the land and with second foot on the sea (Rev. 10:5-7), preceding the 7th trumpet.

Apparently, Raggio's theological point of view is classicaly post-tribulationistic, and that's quite logical according to synoptic gospels - Matthew and Mark (lesser by Luke), that chronologically, following the eschatological chapters in gospels lead us to believe that ressurection and rapture should take place AFTER the Tribulation (Mat.24:29). From this aspect, Raggio is correct.

Now: WHAT FUTURE TIME PERIOD TO SITUATE THE TRIBULATION?

My answer is definitely: As it is written (in following context), when we'll see the abomination standing there where it shouldn't be (Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke says not about the abomination, rather about destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.) - that means after Antichrist is revealed by means of 2. Thessalonians 2:1-4 (verse 4 !!!) - it's the begin of the Tribulation.

And now WHERE'S the END of it? BY NO MEANS would I situate it AFTER the SECOND 3,5 YEAR PERIOD (of Antichrist). No matter - even if he will persecute those who do not bow to him.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Matthew 24:29-31)

As we see, it is AFTER the tribulation, BUT NOT AFTER 3,5 year period of Antichrist's kingdom. Raggio made a good point about the matter that even Church cannot avoid and be raptured BEFORE Tribulation of those days.
ONLY ELECT will experience the rapture.
From this point of view, I may classify myself as Post-Tribber, even if I do believe in rapture occuring in 7th, the last trumpet - before Antichrist reign fully takes place on the earth.

The extreme of classical Post-tribbers lies in assumption that only and only in Revelation 20 would the only first ressurection start. In truth it is written there that those martyrs that had not bow down to the Beast are participants on first ressurection, but it's NOT THE START OF 1st RESSURECTION. It is an END of 1st RESSURECTION. Not many people notice the hidden ressurection with rapture during 7th trumpet, mentioned far before Chapter 20. - Well, the narrow is the way leading to salvation and not many finds it. - But yeah, don't be frightened! Even those left behind have second chance. (Now, not necessarily left behind according to the film - I do not remeber it well, some eschatological films - such as OMEGA CODE - are not biblically complying)

Thinking in levels of Pre-trib., Mid-trib. and Post-trib. beliefs is very stereotypal.
ATTENTION for theologians to correct the timeline of "The Great Tribulation"!!! REVISE !!! And chronologicaly!
Ken Raggio didn't follow chronology in Revelation, but interpreted that 7 book seals, 7 trumpets and 7 vials of God's judgement should occur in same time. - And that's why his teaching cannot be correct. one 3rd part of sea cannot be turned to blood (during the trumpets) in same time as whole sea into blood (during the vials).

Considering this, The Tribulation will have A VERY SHORT DURATION. I would say, maximally one or two weeks, NOT 3,5 YEARS. It is written that: Immediately after the tribulation of those days..., ... NOT THOSE YEARS, NOT THOSE WEEKS, NOT THOSE MONTHS NOR THOSE YEARS !!!
It can be clearly located after killing of Two witnesses (Rev. 11), still before 7th trumpet is sounded. Together with killing the witnesses, Antichrist commits an abomination in the temple. Tribulation STARTS ... ... ... ... 7th trumpet is sounded - and "THE GREAT TRIBULATION" is finished.


Anyone who has any questions of this theme or any opinions, post it here and let's discuss...

Shalom,
Jonatan

[John]

the tribulation will be 7 years at least. howeer, the GREAT tribulation is an indefinate amount of time, which most scholars place in the last three and a half years in the tribulation. i agree with this.

shalom- john

[Jonatan]

Generally, yeah. You're right John that tribulation is the whole time in Revelation from 7 opened seals of the sealed book till 7 poured vials of Lord's judgement and Yeshua's return with His people to the earth.
That may be the 7 years. I just don't understand how people try to declare that Antichrist should reign 7 years. Not that biblical. As we know, he may exist 7 years - starting from Two Olives, but he cannot be revealed yet according to 2 Thess. 2.
He reveals after killing of Two witnesses and put the idol to into the temple.

About the start of the whole tribulation - I believe it to be from the 1st opened seal of the sealed book in Revelation.
Now, that's because of timeline given in gospels - in Matthew and in Mark it is situated after the "abomination on the holy place" - after that, Yeshua mentions that beware that your escape will not occur in Sabbath or in winter for THOSE DAYS will be THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Not whole time - including 3,5 years after killing Two witnesses and rapture, but UNTIL RAPTURE - UNTIL SOUNDING OF 7th TRUMPET.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Matthew 24:29-31)

As long as this passage mentions the trumpet to gather Lord's elect, this must be the last trumpet, so the thing doesn't mention Lord's second return to the earth (see that no word about return into EARTH is used), only into clouds. That refer to this:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
(1. Thessalonians 4:16-17)

Remember: Lord's coming for his ekklesia, his church, during the last (7th) trumpet is not coming to the earth, but into clouds!

I understand that not many recognize this - that is linked though verses of gospels, Paul's letters and Revelation so much - and that's why there are such extremely polarized views on it. One extreme is PRE-TRIBULATIONISM, the second extreme is POST-TRIBULATIONISM.

pros. & cons. of PRE-TRIBULATIONISM: But it's unbiblical according to Matthew 24 from verse 15. Coming for church (rapture) will occur after the tribulation of those days (verse 29), but on the other hand, yes, the church that is prepared, will escape at the start of the 3,5 year period of Antichrist's terror. Because according to Matthew 24:15, the elect that are going to be raptured, will still see "the abomination at the holy place", and will be tempted by false prophets - and MUST NOT BELIEVE THEM! (Matthew 24:23-28, 2 Thess. 2:1-4)

pros. & cons. of POST-TRIBULATIONISM: Unbiblical as well. Correct is, that church will be ressurected and (those living) raptured AFTER the tribulation, but NOT AFTER 3,5 YEAR TERROR PERIOD!!!
Post-tribulationists in fact doesn't believe in the real biblical rapture and their understanding of the rapture is nonsense-like. Why? Because they think that the ressurection in Revelation, Chapter 20 - when there is written that it is the first ressurection, they believe it to be the one and only ressurection for the righteous in that time.
And that's the core of the whole problem. If we all, being righteous were ressurected and raptured all in that time, Christ's return into earth is not that important. The plan for us in the millenium is that we'll reign with Yeshua IN THE EARTH, not in the heaven, but of course, we'll be able to travel between the heaven and the earth.
And, after all, "the first ressurection" (Rev.20:5) doesn't necessarily mean the "the first ressurection starts now", rather I would say that it's the finish of all ressurections that are for the righteous ones - the first ressurection is for righteous, no matter if it take place in time of Rev.20:5 or sooner. But if you consider, there will not be any type of "first ressurection" after Rev.20:5.
It means that in time of Rev.20:5, the first ressurection is finished. After that, there'll be only ressurection for the condemned ones.

Sh'lom!

[John]

wow... this is really in depth. i have to study eschatology agin and then i will tell you what my views are. i feel inadequete to talk to you about this. wait for a whle and i will talk to you about this. until then, i will be following your discussion with other people who respond.

shalom- john