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Post by John on Jun 2, 2009 17:34:26 GMT -5
okay- i have been researching cremation alot lately, and i havent found strong arguments on either side yet. all the arguments seem reasonable, but none hit me like a "WHAT?! shutcho face and slap yo grandma" thing.
so i need your help.
i just feel in my spirit that something about it has to be the ressurection, but i find it a big step to say "you lose your salvation to cremate." i am so confuzzled with this situation.
can you help?
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Jun 2, 2009 22:25:58 GMT -5
My perspective is that burial is preferable because it's a powerful symbol of our belief in a bodily resurrection.
But no resurrection is impossible for God, of course.
Think of the martyrs that were burned to death or consumed by wild animals.
The early church worked their way through this issue as well, and that was one of their considerations.
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Post by John on Jun 3, 2009 5:48:04 GMT -5
i have come up with a few arguments against cremation, but non e are very strong enough for me:
the patriarchs were buried; the matriarchs were buried; you are a temple and you burn temples only out of desecration or you are bringing cdown an unclean temple; you are created in the image of Yah, so you are desecrating his image; fire was always a sign of Yah's judgement, etc.
also, Yah says that a man is to be buried on the day that he dies. did he mean burial exactly, or did he mean you need to dispose of the body?
etc.
i agree with you anochria, but how is burial a type of the resssurection?
shalom- john
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Jun 8, 2009 8:14:15 GMT -5
Burial - type of ressurection? I'm not sure about it. Rather I would say it's not type, but fulfillment - consequence of falling Adam to sin. We are descendants of Adam, so every man must die (of course there are some exceptions such as Enoch or the last generation that will experience rapture).
Maybe Anochria meant 'spiritual burial' of the old human nature through baptism in water and thus identify with Yeshua's death and ressurection. That is truly the type of ressurection.
About fire as Lord's judgement - what if that fire the people are burned by is from Satan? Lord Himself shall not send His consuming fire on His people to condemn them.
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Post by John on Jun 8, 2009 13:52:53 GMT -5
well- if we are to be ressurected in the pattern that the types give, we are to be buried, not cremated. by this i mean the following:
a leaf dies and falls to the ground, is buried, and rises as a tree. this is a type of the ressurection that Shaul gives in corinthians. now, if this is typical of the ressurection than we are not to be burned, but buried. otherwise, we make God a liar in the types that he has given us... the farmer does not burn the seed so that it will become a tree.
but then again, Clement of Rome gives the Phoenix bird as an example of the resurection. (if you dont think there are phoenix birds, than what clement may have been referring to is a fallen phoenix of heaven as enoch records 7 phoenixes on the 6th heaven). and a phoenix burns dies, becomes a worm, and rises again every 500 years. this was an early christians symbol of the ressurection. Does this support cremation?
the only thing that i can say right now is that it is a matter of prsonal preference. since the p'shat of a verse can be manipulated, than we need the remez/hints/crossreferencing to back this theory up. then afterwards, we can derive the sod from this, to back it up even further. but i cannot find any proof that cremation is not biblical.
shalom- john
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Jun 10, 2009 8:25:16 GMT -5
Well, I don't like cremation too. But what about those who are put to death this way by their enemies? Such as christians and messianics by Roman Emperors? - take an example from Circus Maximus.
Do we have to think that these people were not saved or those who will be treated this way (of course they don't desire it) are condemned by Lord's judgement? And forever?
If we die as martyrs for our Lord and our enemies do that with us, are we lost??
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Post by John on Jun 10, 2009 16:16:10 GMT -5
okay, say that the bible does condemn cremation, and it is a denial of the resssurection.
well, the curse of being cremateed would NOT be on the dead body unless the body ordered it. this is becuase the dead body has no control after death. nay, the creamator and the one who orered the body to be creamated- this is the one who will be cursed.
that is my point.
i am just looking to see whather cremation really is condemned by the bible.
but no, a person cannot be judged as being in the wrong for something that they couldnt control.
shalom- john
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Jonatan
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Post by Jonatan on Jun 11, 2009 8:48:57 GMT -5
Ok, that sounds quite fair - and logical.
I have just remembered (well, NOT I - Lord gave me it - I don't want to say that "by my own strength or wisdom...", you know) something that would say about that cremators do sin, if they commit cremations of bodies. I just didn't understand you before, but now that you responded, I see.
There was such a matter in OC, that some Moabs have burned bones of one of Edomite kings. - and it was rebuked through Amos - in way that 'Thus saith the Lord' that He is angry on it and it is abominable in His eyes.
Amos 2:1 1 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime:... and so on...
As you read further, you'll find punishments for it. Maybe it can serve us as a warning principle against doing like this.
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Post by John on Jun 11, 2009 10:42:50 GMT -5
that is intersting--- i have not found that verse when reasearching it, but that s definately a stronger argument than the ones i have run into in my studies.
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Post by thevicarsson on Jun 12, 2009 9:11:54 GMT -5
A valid argument for cremation is lots of people get burnt because they want to ensure they are dead, although I am in favour of cremation you are slightly balancing my thoughts.
PS. Theres some sick people in my class and they were saying the worst song to have at a funeral would be burn baby burn.
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Post by John on Jun 12, 2009 16:19:03 GMT -5
ell, only if you are cremated.
but we must remember that cremation is a sign of the last judgement. by being cremated you express a prophecy rthrough actions prophesying that you will be burnt in the lake of fire. and if you are not, this is false prophecy. if you are, your going to hell anyway.
shalom- john
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Jun 12, 2009 22:16:16 GMT -5
when I said burial reflects our belief in bodily resurrection, what I meant was this:
we believe not as the Greeks did who imagined a disembodied state after death, but rather that before the final judgment God will give us back our physical bodies (though glorified and changed).
burial is a reminder that our physical bodies are sacred because they are God's good creation, and his ultimate intent is for us to be "in a body". It's also a reminder that what went into the ground "whole" will rise to life in wholeness (spirit and body) one day.
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Post by John on Jun 13, 2009 7:58:13 GMT -5
so what happens to our spirit before ressurection? does it exist in "nakedness""? is it conscious?
i will start a new thread on this.
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Jun 14, 2009 22:00:59 GMT -5
Did you start the thread yet? I'd like to comment on it.
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Post by John on Jun 15, 2009 17:19:59 GMT -5
yes. it is under the spirit world probably.
i can t remembr, lol.
shalom- john
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Jun 15, 2009 23:00:25 GMT -5
You know, I provide live links to other threads on my forum
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