Spare the Rod?

[John]

this subject has been the main reason that older people dont like me: i tell them i disagree with spanking. now, my mother spanked me. i expressed my utter hate of spanking not becuase it hurt, but because i didnt think that it was right. she got alot of od people to gang up on me and tell me the 'back in the day' children were well behaved becasue of there spankings.

well, i say, you can discipline your children the way you want, and i am not going to tell you or my mother HOW to discipline their children. but my opinion is that this is not back in the day anymore, and parents NOW have a tendency to use spanking for abuse and/or their own satizfaction; not as discipline. and i personally dont think that it should be used as discipline either.

so, what do you guys think? many point out the verse 'spare the rod, than you hate your child.' i point out that proverbs uses alot of figurative language like 'engraved in your heart' , etc. this is not different, i say. the 'rod' was a tool for shepherds that guided the sheep. the staff on the other hand, was used to beat wolves, etc. that put the sheep in danger.

you are to guide your children, not beat them with a stick.

shalom- john

[Jonatan]

Well, that demands one question. Do Jews practise spanking according to Solomon's Proverbs to make progress in chastity and righteousness of their children? If it works, it should be practised - but wisely.
I don't know what to say on it, but if Word says it, it MUST be truth! Even if we do not agree with it. I wouldn't let my children do things which are fatal according to Torah, and would use even physical punishment to keep them from serious sins and things parents have to keep the children from. Parents are authority given by God for children - mainly if they are His followers, but even if they are not, they are authorities for children until they are mature. This has been established by Lord our God. AMEN!

[John]

do you really think the word intended us to BEAT our children with a rod? no. not at all.

and do you think beating your child with a literal rod like the proverbs puts it, will save your child from hell, like the proverbs puts it, or just send you there?

the rod must be figuraive, because no amount of beating done to a child is going to save themk from hell. however, beating them with the ROD OF CORRECTION (the bible) will.

shalom- john

[Jonatan]

do you really think the word intended us to BEAT our children with a rod? no. not at all.

and do you think beating your child with a literal rod like the proverbs puts it, will save your child from hell, like the proverbs puts it, or just send you there?

Proverbs 23:13 Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from sheol...

I don't know. If it helps and is useful, why not?

There is also written:
Provebs 13:24 He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

Proverbs 19:18 Chasten your son while there is hope, And do not set your heart on his destruction. - NKJV
or
Proverbs 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying. - KJV

Interesting, isn't it? It should be looked into original. And yeah, can Word of God destroy children? That's why I think this is rather literal.

the rod must be figuraive, because no amount of beating done to a child is going to save themk from hell. however, beating them with the ROD OF CORRECTION (the bible) will.

It may be ALSO figurative, okay (the Word is the best Rod of correction, I agree), but what if the child don't take it and disobey? Ask orthodox Jewish rabbis, what do they do with this? Don't do they practice it literaly, if it works?

[John]

it does not matter if it works- that does not make it right.

plus, i d=know Yah doesnt want us to BEAT our children, so we might as well let the fact that it is at least a LITTLE figurative and exaggerated, even if it is literal, stand.

[anochria]

John, don't you think there is a difference between beating and spanking?

[John]

yes but is not the word in the verse beating? exactly. it must be symbolic. it is the ROD OF CORRECTION, not a literal rod. and throughout that whole book, any reference to the rod refers to the ROD OF CORRECTION, not a literal rod. rods were never used for hitting. beating may have just been a word for action, implying an active not passive part on the parents side. they should actively correct their child. they should actively lead their child in the right direction.

shalom- john

[anochria]

In the NIV, it is rendered:

Prov. 23: 13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.

I think this is more accurate considering what is meant by the word "beat" in English today, but it does imply physical punishment.

I agree, the manner of discipline should be decided by the parent in a loving and responsible way, but I don't think physical punishment (spanking) is intrinsically evil. It may have it's place in certain circumstances with certain children.

[John]

so youll tell that child not to hit and punish them by hitting them? spanking is also inconsistant! it conveys the message that physical pain is okay if you do it. the parent then becomes hypocritical. and the more the child can hold you accountable for, the less that child listens to you.

think about it, at first a little child loves their father because they dont think he can do anything wrong. then as they get oldr, they no longer listen as much because they think "well, my dad did the same thing," or "my dad cant hold me accountable for what he did himself"... i find this eveident everywhere now. and spanking is just a way for that child to hold another think on their own personal book of deeds.

and most of the time spanking becoms a punishment that helps the parent more than the child. the parents more often than not get into the habit of hitting their child out of anger, which sometimes though not as often, can expand into abuse.

i MIGHT permit spanking out of love and not anger. but you can make too many mistakes if you get used to this form of punishment. and as i said before, its still inconsistant, and consistancy is the 2nd most important thing a parent must have, after love.

shalom- john

[anochria]

I see the logic you're using, and I've considered it. I think of spanking as only useful in specific, serious cases.

But your logic could be appled, for instance, to argue against a death penalty for murderers, yet the Mosaic law proscribes such a punishment without concern that a mixed message is being sent.

[John]

a death resulting from a death penalty is not murder because it is not done maliciously or with evil intent.

so spanking needs to be done, if you are to spank, out of more love than anger. but most parents dont do that. most hit their child instead of spanking. there intent is to hurt the child so that they wont do anything bad, but they focus on hurting their child when they are veiled and clouded with anger.

so i guess i would accept spanking if it was not a abused as it is and as polluted as it is with people spanking their children more out of abuse and for their own help instead of the childs. However, i would rather no one spank so no one falls into the trap. its like paul in corinthains, where he says that he wishes husband and wife would by mutual consent, abatain for sex for only a short period to reflect on God. however, he says, if you cannot handle it (if you feel deprived of sin and want to go to another other than your spouse for sexual pleasure), he tells you not to do it at all for that is his advice, not Gods. same here. i sau that if you can, spank your child with love and for the reason of discipline and guidance, not out of anger. dont let your child become a punching bag.

however, since many fall into the trap, i wish that none would spank, so that they do not sin. but i ask that you yourselves not judge this. i do not doubt that some of you can judge righteously what you may do to punish your chldren. however, try to get someone else to tell you whether you think that they can spank out of anger, and someone who really knows how you act when you are angry or such.

i have explained my full logic to you now, and cannot really say much more. sorry. but i hope i explaine my beliefs on this well.

shalom- john

[anochria]

Thanks for the discussion.

so spanking needs to be done, if you are to spank, out of more love than anger. but most parents dont do that. most hit their child instead of spanking. there intent is to hurt the child so that they wont do anything bad, but they focus on hurting their child when they are veiled and clouded with anger.

I agree. Spanking out of anger is about one of the worst things a parent could do... and it also relatively easy to do once the doors have been opened.

I would agree that if there is any other way in a behavioral situation to sufficiently communicate to a child what needs to be communicated, then that other option should be preferred.

[John]

well then i guess we did agree in the begining of the discussion anyway! lol. :-) i guesss we just had to clarify the ideas.

shalom- john