Post by anochria on Apr 23, 2009 19:04:49 GMT -5
Elsewhere, pioneer took issue with a passing comment of mine that I don't hold to the idea of "soul sleep" Instead, I think the Bible leans in favor of the idea that the dead are conscious to some degree in the time between their death and their resurrection.
Pioneer quoted this passage from Ecclesiastes as evidence to the contrary:
4 ¶ For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
and asked:
In response:
Yes, passages like the one you referenced about from Ecclesiastes do seem to be evidence that the dead are completely unconscious (which is the definition I am assuming for the idea of "soul sleep"). However, there are other passages which seem to, in an equal manner, suggest that the dead are conscious in some way:
Isaiah 14:9-17
9 The grave below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
"You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us."
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?"
In Luke 23:42-43 the about to be put to death theif on the cross says:
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
This reference to paradise indicates a hint of a pleasent experience, and the phrase "with me" seems to indicate something he will be aware of.
I presume by mentioning "Yeshua's stories" you were referring to Jesus' parable about the "Rich Man and Lazarus"- an extended story in which the dead are spoken of as conscious. How can you just dismiss the story off-hand? What is your reason for dismissal? (even if it is a parable, it reflects Jewish beliefs about the afterlife)
Another example of post-mortem consciousness that could be cited is the martyrs under the altar in Revelation who cry out for their blood to be avenged.
Please note that I fully admit that the Bible uses the word "sleep" to describe the state of death. But I see that as a metaphor for the ethereal state of spirits without flesh and bone, not a hard and fast statement that there is absolutely no consciousness in the grave, as do proponents of the "soul sleep" doctrine.
At the very least, hopefully you can see that it's a worthy debate and not an open-shut case.
Pioneer quoted this passage from Ecclesiastes as evidence to the contrary:
4 ¶ For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
and asked:
Why in Gods name would any of these verses be included in the bible if they are meaningless?
Does the bible suggest that we are aware of death?
Yes I am aware of Yeshua's stories.
If any thing has two witnesses, NT+ Tanack then post away, otherwise it is the Christian dogma.
Does the bible suggest that we are aware of death?
Yes I am aware of Yeshua's stories.
If any thing has two witnesses, NT+ Tanack then post away, otherwise it is the Christian dogma.
In response:
Yes, passages like the one you referenced about from Ecclesiastes do seem to be evidence that the dead are completely unconscious (which is the definition I am assuming for the idea of "soul sleep"). However, there are other passages which seem to, in an equal manner, suggest that the dead are conscious in some way:
Isaiah 14:9-17
9 The grave below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
"You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us."
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?"
In Luke 23:42-43 the about to be put to death theif on the cross says:
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
This reference to paradise indicates a hint of a pleasent experience, and the phrase "with me" seems to indicate something he will be aware of.
I presume by mentioning "Yeshua's stories" you were referring to Jesus' parable about the "Rich Man and Lazarus"- an extended story in which the dead are spoken of as conscious. How can you just dismiss the story off-hand? What is your reason for dismissal? (even if it is a parable, it reflects Jewish beliefs about the afterlife)
Another example of post-mortem consciousness that could be cited is the martyrs under the altar in Revelation who cry out for their blood to be avenged.
Please note that I fully admit that the Bible uses the word "sleep" to describe the state of death. But I see that as a metaphor for the ethereal state of spirits without flesh and bone, not a hard and fast statement that there is absolutely no consciousness in the grave, as do proponents of the "soul sleep" doctrine.
At the very least, hopefully you can see that it's a worthy debate and not an open-shut case.