the Sacrificial system

[John]

Okay- anyone who can answer answr this:

Is the sacrificial system to be followed today? how much? who?what?when?where?why?how?

why or why not?

shalom- john

[Jonatan]

Some people - only christians, I would say people of Replacement theology would say that temple sacrifices by Jews would be denial of Yeshua's perfect sacrifice.
I consider it a heresy, because even Yeshua, first apostles, their disciples among Jewish people - even Messianic Jews brought offerings to the temple until 70 AD, by order of OT.

If a question 'where'? - Then only in one place, one city - Yerushalaim (Jerusalem) at Mount Moria, where Abraham was going to offer Isaac, and where all the temples stood. That's where God decided to dwell in the Earth, and there the 3rd temple should be built again. As I have heard, there are great preparations in Israel for the 3rd temple - there are Levitical trainings that practices the sacrifices and other Levitical orders. As I have heard, many of the 1st and 2nd temple apparatuses were found beneath the old city of Jerusalem, under the temple mount. It is said that even Ark of the covenant have been found, but the way there is impossible now, because there are Muslim guards blocking the way to underground, forbidding to dig there.

By whom? If there's a group of people that need it most, it's orthodox Jews that have not recognized their Messiah. They need continual sacrifices as well as Yom Kippur.
By Ezekiel's chapters 40-48 there should be built this new temple which hasn't been built yet. Order of the OT, which has vanished by destroying the 2nd temple by Romans, shall be restored. Better for those of Sons of Israel that won't recognize Yeshua as Messiah to have at least OT sacrifices than none. Without blood spilled for atonement, there's no remission. Only if Yeshua spilled His blood also for them even if they do not believe in Him.

From Daniel 9:27 we know that Antichrist (the Beast), 'the evil one than shall sit into temple of God' (2 Thess. 2) shall make the offerings to cease (he'll shabbat them, as in original ) and replace it by his abomination (which is the hebrew synonym for idol in original). That is the Image of the Beast.

[John]

most jews say that the sacrificial system is not the only means for forgiveness of sins.

plus, the 'blood' spoken of in leviticus i think refers to the messinaic blood.

i personally think that ALL should offer sacrifices, jew and gentile. But we should not do it until we enter the moshehic part of our training. but all have to follow the same mitzvot for there is neiher jew nor gentile in Yeshua the mashiach

jonotan it seems that you think that orthadox jews can be saved by offering scrifices without the blood of Yshua? am i understanding you?

[Jonatan]

May 21, 2009 15:24:44 GMT -5 John said:

most jews say that the sacrificial system is not the only means for forgiveness of sins.

plus, the 'blood' spoken of in leviticus i think refers to the messinaic blood.

i personally think that ALL should offer sacrifices, jew and gentile. But we should not do it until we enter the moshehic part of our training. but all have to follow the same mitzvot for there is neiher jew nor gentile in Yeshua the mashiach

jonotan it seems that you think that orthadox jews can be saved by offering scrifices without the blood of Yshua? am i understanding you?

You're understanding me quite well. Unless they are part of NT, OT order is still actual for them. I think they may do it in faith - that will be accepted by YHVH and it shall be passed on Yeshua's perfect sacrifice. People in OT also didn't have any choice, but to do it by OT system. Were they condemned without Yeshua? I think not - they made the same thing in 'shadow of future things' as they would do in NT by accepting Yeshua's sacrifice.
It is written: All Israel shall be saved - not only Messianics

[John]

i highly disagree with you, but i do understand your postiion a lot better now.

so do you think gentiles should follow the law and in particular the sacrificial system?

shalom- john

[Jonatan]

I think gentile believers should follow Torah by their possibilities - it's Aion of Mercy, we're not under Law, but under mercy. But by our possibilities - as you wrote before - everyone has to follow Torah by his/her own possibilities, otherwise that person lives not life of love.
Concering sacrificial system, it's not for gentiles - messianic Jews can, Orthodox are OBLIGED by Torah to do it unless they entered the New Covenant.
OT Sacrifices are also sign of faith when they are brought in faith, unless it may be unpleasant to the Lord as Isaiah mentions (Isaiah 66). But anyway, it's prophetic symbol of perfect Yeshua's sacrifice. Why then should be sacrifices in chapters of Ezekiel 40-48, in temple which has not been built yet?

[John]

omygosh. wow. i really disagree with you. i think that once gentiles become part of Yisrael they can still stay gentiles, but still have to follow all of the laws of Yah that apply to Yisrael.

we were never supposed to be under the law. we were always supposed to be under grace. under the law means gaining salvation through the law, which no man can ever do. shaul was once trying to do so, but then he left from being under the law, and went under grace.

now, even if orthadox rabbinical jews did sacrifice animals, they would not make it into heaven because they are without the son. and anyone without the son is without the father also.

and gentiles like i said, are part of Yisrael. so they are to offer sacrifices as well. now, believers are not to offer sin sacrifices not becaiuse they are not allowed, but because when Yeshua takes away our sin nature, and gives us a means not to sin, than you do not have to have sin sacrifices because siln sacrifices are not needed when there is no sin.

now, the sacrifices the prophets spoke of are sacrifices (or gifts as Yeshua said) that are offered when sins are not repented of in the heart. this is why Yeshua said reconcile yourself with tsour brother before you offer a gift at the alter.

and also, sacrifices before Yeshua lookeed towards Yeshua, and sacrifices after looked back. The ezekiel sacrifices will only take place during the mellinium and there are no sin offerings included.

shalom- john

[Jonatan]

now, even if orthadox rabbinical jews did sacrifice animals, they would not make it into heaven because they are without the son. and anyone without the son is without the father also.

Well, but why then were sacrifices for sin commanded in OT?

and also, sacrifices before Yeshua lookeed towards Yeshua, and sacrifices after looked back. The ezekiel sacrifices will only take place during the mellinium and there are no sin offerings included.

I agree with you. Continual sacrifices which is mentioned in Ezekiel, in the new temple, are not sacrifice for sin, are they? They're just offering tribute to Lord, something as offering tenth parts of our wealth, right?

[John]

sacrifices for sin were for sins until Yeshua. after Yeshua they are not abolished, but no longer needed because he takes away our sin nature so we will no longer sin

[Jonatan]

Yeah, and there are another types of sacrifices - such as not for sins. Continual sacrifices are not for sins, right? They are just tribute to our Lord, showing Him our thanks, it's gift of one's free will, am I right?

[John]

any sacrifices other than sin offerings are still to be sacrificed.

what most people dont realize is that a lot of sacrifices are optional. you dont have to do every sacrifice prescribed in leviticus.

shalom- john

[anochria]

sacrifices for sin were for sins until Yeshua. after Yeshua they are not abolished, but no longer needed because he takes away our sin nature so we will no longer sin

But we do still sin at times, and John says we are liars if we claim we do not.

(1 John 1:9-10)

Still, should we sin, this same passage says that God is faithful and just to forgive me my sins and cleanse me from unrighteousness through confession, not through ritual sacrifice.

[John]

he says that we have an intercessor- Yeshua. Yeshua plays the part of a greater mosheh who lead us throuh a greater exodus. But mosheh still had sacrifices. the point Yochanon was trying to ake is that even if we do sin, though we do not have sacrifices, we can be forgiven. sacrifices are ONE outward expression of the inward repentance. we are forgiven apart from the sacrifice, but the sacrifice is justifying yourself to man.

also, Yochanon says also this:

5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


in other words, Yochanon is saying that a man who says he has NEVER sinned is a liar, but once a person who was in the darkness comes into the light, he can have no darkness in him.

so after we are saved, we can be without sin. Man does not have to sin after connecting to the body of Yeshua, who is without sin. it is our own lack of self control that is making us sin. when we first accept Yeshua, we ar estill trying to circumcise our sin nature from us.. So at first it will be hard. this is the greater exodus. but once we are fully circumcised of the Yetzer hara- which can be done in this lifetime- than we are through this exodus and we recieve that tables of the law in FULL (for through the exodus Yeshua's spriit was engraving the words progressively) but of the spirit this time- not the letter. so when we read the law now it does not give an room for iniquity to be worked through the mitzvot.

shalom- john

[anochria]

In John, written to Christians, the phrase "confess our sins" in verse 9 is stated in the present tense as well as the past (in verse 10)

Yes, John writes that we might not sin (1 John 2:1) but acknowledges that we may still sin.

James backs this up when he says "we all stumble in many ways" (James 3:2)

Though I think it is theoretically possible for us to never sin again once we're in Christ, I don't think it can be considered normative. I've never seen a case of 100% sinlessness. Even Peter himself fell into sin.

Paul explains this by describing our dual natures at war with each other (the sinful nature needing to be put to death daily, and the perfect new creation that God is bringing to birth within us, in combat during our lives here on earth)

[John]

i think that sinlessness was the norm of christians. not now- bnut i think it was. and in theory, it is not sinlessness, because they sinned before being saved, as all have.

also note that Shaul says not to divorce, BUT IF YOU DO he says...etc... in other words, not divorcing is the irhgteous way , and the norm, but shaul still acknoweledges that a person could divorce, or be divorced.

the same with Yochanon and sin.

shalom- john

[anochria]

i think that sinlessness was the norm of christians

Then why do so many of the New Testament books address the issue of sin in the community of followers of Yeshua?

I mean, just take 1 Corinthians for a case in point.

[John]

they were believers that had just begun- they had not yet circumcised there Yetzer Hara. heres another one: look at phillipians. he had nothing to say to them they were doing so well, that he only had to rpeat what he said before. also, if Paul had to corect iall those sins, than he must have taken care of the sins because Yochanon says to take the beam out of your owwneye bedfore you remove the dust out of anothers.

shalom- john


also, what is the greek for Yochanons 'present' and 'past tense' phrases. youknow greek? where did you get this info from?

[anochria]

Can we start a thread on "sinlessness" or something like that.

[Jonatan]

It is possible that EVEN in messianic 1000yrs kingdom there'll be sacrificial system - if Ezekiel's temple from chapter 40-48 is saying about the temple in millenial kingdom.

In every case - sacrifices cannot be bad - mainly if it is stressed in Ezekiel that it will continue.

There exist many questions about this:

• Whether the temple in Ezekiel will be the same third as so-called fourth temple (after Antichrist, when Yeshua return to establish millenial kingdom) - so that the temple will not be destroyed and rebuilt, but renewed and consecrated again as it was in chanukka. (I don't marvel if it's going to be this way, cos those events of Antioch Epifanes and Macchabeans are prototype for the eschatologic period of Antichrist, who shall stop sacrifices alike)
  
  
• Or whether third temple will be destroyed and then rebuilt as fourth temple (because as I have heard, the description of the temple given by Ezekiel is too large to be built in this era without Mashiach) where this levitical system of sacrifices will be restored.
  

[John]

i think that the third temple will be defiled by the antichrist, and then cleansed at hanukka- 75 days after the return of Yeshua.

the sacrifices will be offered in the mellinial temlpe.... but what ezekiel may have been referiing to is even AFTER the temple. it may be during the sacrificial sysrtem of the Olam- haba.

shalom- john