A Largely Unsuccessful Project?

[anochria]

So, a question for those of you who believe that it is the duty of the follower of Yeshua to abide as much as possible by the Mosaic Law-

If it is the case that G-d intended His church to follow the entire law, and He sent His Spirit to lead and guide His followers into all truth, how can it be that most Christians at most times and in most places have failed not only to do, but to even understand, such a primary injunctive? This seems like a major indictment against G-d's ability to shepherd his flock.

Of course there have been errors and apostates throughout church history, of course there have been dark periods, but it seems like if one were to hold the view most common on these boards, then instead of seeing the history of the body of Christ as victorious in the midst of temptation and trials, we'd have to see the project as largely unsuccessful.

This sounds very much like the view of the Latter Day Saints, for instance, which, likewise, I have always thought reflected a very low view of G-d's sovreignty over his new covenant people.

See this as a honest question, not designed to incite. I'm just very curious how you would answer this.

[John]

in the last days there will be alot of evil- in other words, religion will fail to bare its grip in one school of thought, but the other school of theought says that the religion is just teaching the wrong thing.

also, most people that i have ever talkeed to dont believe in a preterists theology as well. just becaseuits common doesnt mean that it will be true.

shalom- john

[itiswritten]

May 7, 2009 23:15:55 GMT -5 anochria said:

So, a question for those of you who believe that it is the duty of the follower of Yeshua to abide as much as possible by the Mosaic Law-

If it is the case that G-d intended His church to follow the entire law, and He sent His Spirit to lead and guide His followers into all truth, how can it be that most Christians at most times and in most places have failed not only to do, but to even understand, such a primary injunctive? This seems like a major indictment against G-d's ability to shepherd his flock.

Actually it is a major indictment against the religious systems of the world, not the Almighty. It is not because of His inferior shepherding skills, but the disobedience of His people. Time after time the people of Israel were drawn away from following YHVH and obeying His commandments to embrace idolatry and error. The Almighty would send prophets of truth to warn the people to repent and go back to the good path, but usually they rebelled against the Word of YHVH and killed His prophets.

Y'shua and his followers warned repeatedly of the deception to come. He said that the deception would be so bad that if it were possible even the very elect would be deceived. There has been a small remnant down through the ages and it remains even now. Christianity, which is still the largest religion in the world, has historically and presently been alienated from the truth and practices of the first century believers. In describing the deception and false teachings that were to soon come, Peter (Kepha) puts it this way:

2 Peter 2:1-2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

We see that these false teachers that Peter speaks of will cause "many" to follow in their pernicious (filthy, lasciviousness, wantonness) ways. Why is it that many follow the incorrect way of these false teachers? Because by them the "way of truth" shall be evil spoken of. What is the "way of truth?"

Psalm 119:24-30 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counselors. 25My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word. 26I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes. 27Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works. 28My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word. 29Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously. 30I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.

As shown in Psalms, the "way of truth" is the law/instruction, statutes, commandments, ordinances and words of YHVH. These false teachers that Kepha warned of will speak evil of the law/commandments (the way of truth)

Therefore clearly man has historically had a proclivity towards disobedience and usually chooses to follow the false shepherds rather than the true.

May 7, 2009 23:15:55 GMT -5 anochria said:

Of course there have been errors and apostates throughout church history, of course there have been dark periods, but it seems like if one were to hold the view most common on these boards, then instead of seeing the history of the body of Christ as victorious in the midst of temptation and trials, we'd have to see the project as largely unsuccessful.

This sounds very much like the view of the Latter Day Saints, for instance, which, likewise, I have always thought reflected a very low view of G-d's sovreignty over his new covenant people.

See this as a honest question, not designed to incite. I'm just very curious how you would answer this.

Regardless of how things may seem to us, we are not to lean into our own understanding, nor do what is right in our own eyes. We are to look to what YHVH has spoken. Let Elohim be true and every man a liar. YHVH will preserve a remnant as He always has. For it is written:

Matthew 7:12-15 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

So in terms of your question Christianity has been a huge failure by most standards, but the plan of YHVH will be successful for He has preserved His Word and His people in the earth.

[John]

well put itiswritten

[itiswritten]

Thanks John.

[anochria]

Time after time the people of Israel were drawn away from following YHVH and obeying His commandments to embrace idolatry and error. The Almighty would send prophets of truth to warn the people to repent and go back to the good path, but usually they rebelled against the Word of YHVH and killed His prophets.

I'm not going to deny that the church has seen ups and downs akin to the struggles of ancient Israel.

However, the body of Christ has something that the ancient Israelites did not have- the constant indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. In the New Covenant, G-d tabernacles in our hearts, the law is written within us, etc.. Messiah's kingdom was to forcibly advance and fill the world with the knowledge of G-d.
The strong man was bound by Yeshua in his earthly ministry, ushering in a new era in which the true Israelites, the church, would reclaim territory from the dethroned ruler of this world.

I think you are greatly underappreciating what G-d has done through His church in the last 2,000 years.

And, I think the "false teachers" in view in the passages you cited were both proto-Gnostics and Judaizers- with a particular emphasis on false teachings during the 1st Century which threatened to undermine the establishment of Yeshua's kingdom (and which ultimately failed).

[anochria]

most people that i have ever talkeed to dont believe in a preterists theology as well

This is not a rational basis on which to reject preterism.

just becaseuits common doesnt mean that it will be true.

Actually, the premillenial view is more common these days. I would agree that just because a view is widespread doesn't mean it is true. But, ironically, you seem to be using that very logic in the above quote (most people...)

Both views (pre-millenialism/ preterism-amillenialsim) have extensive histories in the life of the church over the last 2,000 years.

[John]

just because i said that a whole lot of people dont believe in that doctrine doesnt mean that i am using that as a basis for not believing in preterist theology.

i belive that .

Yeshua will come after the tribulation, before the mellinum... but this will happen in the future.

[itiswritten]

May 9, 2009 0:51:58 GMT -5 anochria said:

Time after time the people of Israel were drawn away from following YHVH and obeying His commandments to embrace idolatry and error. The Almighty would send prophets of truth to warn the people to repent and go back to the good path, but usually they rebelled against the Word of YHVH and killed His prophets.

I'm not going to deny that the church has seen ups and downs akin to the struggles of ancient Israel.

However, the body of Christ has something that the ancient Israelites did not have- the constant indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. In the New Covenant, G-d tabernacles in our hearts, the law is written within us, etc.. Messiah's kingdom was to forcibly advance and fill the world with the knowledge of G-d.
The strong man was bound by Yeshua in his earthly ministry, ushering in a new era in which the true Israelites, the church, would reclaim territory from the dethroned ruler of this world.

I think you are greatly underappreciating what G-d has done through His church in the last 2,000 years.

I think it is important to understand who and what the church actually is. In the NT, the word translated "church" in English is "ecclessia." When you check out the Septuagint, we see the word ecclessia frequently which is from the Hebrew kohal. Contrary to most Christian theology, the "church" did not originate at "Pentecost." The church/ecclessia/kohal has been in existence for about 3,500 years or so. The true assembly is comprised of Jew and Gentile and are grafted into the good olive tree. (Romans 11)

Regarding "Pentecost", this is just the Greek name of the Biblical Feast Shavaot also called Feast of Weeks. This is why those 120 were assembled that day because if was a feast day. Traditionally believed to be the very day that the Ten Commandments were given on Har Sinia.

Furthermore, the gospel was preached unto Abraham (Gal 3) as well as the Children of Israel/church in the wilderness (Heb 4:2)(Acts 7)

In addition, the Messiah was in the wilderness with the Children of Israel. (1 Cor 10), and Mosees esteemed the riches of Messiah greater than Egypt.

The idea of a system that is prevelant in Christianity of Old Testiment/the Jews/Law changing to New Testiment/Grace/ Church is erroneous.

It is also important to realize that the Brit Hadesha (New (Renewed) Covenant) was not made with the Gentiles. The New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. The Covenant is this: That the Torot of YHVH be written upon their hearts and minds. This covenant has not come in its fullness yet. There are aspects of it that we still have not entered into. Gentiles that are made part of this covenant are grafted in. Once grafted into the true vine and becoming part of the good olive tree they become part of the Commonwealth of Israel and are no longer strangers to the "covenants" and promises as they were before.

There is not a set of Sabbaths and Festivals for the homeborn and a second set for the Gentiles.

May 9, 2009 0:51:58 GMT -5 anochria said:

And, I think the "false teachers" in view in the passages you cited were both proto-Gnostics and Judaizers- with a particular emphasis on false teachings during the 1st Century which threatened to undermine the establishment of Yeshua's kingdom (and which ultimately failed).

We can speculate about "who" the false teachers were/are that Kepha spoke of, but it is not as important the who as what they teach. We see from the passage that they taught or spoke evil of the "way of truth" which is identified with the Torah of YHVH. Any modern teachers teaching what the false teachers Kepha described as teaching would still be false teachers.

The examples that we are given in the NT are of Hebrews walking in obedience to The Elohim of Israel. We see them keeping the Seventh day Sabbath and observing the festivals among other things. When we look at the bulk of even the NT writings this is clear as is their examples. In Acts 21, Shaul (Paul) clears up the issue once and for all of what he was actually teaching. Even people at that time misunderstood his message. To make it clear that these rumours were false and that Shaul was not teaching against the Torah, but also kept the Torah and walked orderly he publicly illustrated this clearly by taking seven days and then offerening up sacrifices.

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing;[/size] but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. [/b]

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. [/i]

[John]

once again well put. and anochria: realize that we may use a scripture for personal reasons that has nothing to do with the context of the verse. this is a drash. we wont use it for solid debates, but we will use it. ie, i dont do something to do with a rod in my life because scripture says 'spare the rod [spoil the child].'

it is not that we are not understanding the word of YHVH, on the contrary we do! this was the rabbinic way of interpreting scripture.

you are a little bit stuck on the peshat. go deeper into scripture. my favorite is rememz- cross referencing and hints in the writers, etc.

you may gain a favorite as well.

[anochria]

Sorry, I'm a little unclear how the bulk* of the last two responses is related to the subject of this thread. It seems like more of a discussion about the subject of "Israel and the Church"


*except the first part of itiswritten's reply.

[itiswritten]

May 11, 2009 22:24:10 GMT -5 anochria said:

Sorry, I'm a little unclear how the bulk* of the last two responses is related to the subject of this thread. It seems like more of a discussion about the subject of "Israel and the Church"


*except the first part of itiswritten's reply.

I was responding to your post that I quoted. I thought that the points that I made were clearly relevent to the content of the posts that you have made.

[John]

anochria- i was posto=ing my comment here so that you would know how scripture was used by us sometimes on the forum... you were right in that it has nothing to do with the topic. i was stating it here because one of my sentences were on topic and i needed to tell you that anyway, so why not?


shalom- john

[anochria]

Okay. Thanks.