Immortality of the soul

[John]

i now that many members of BYF are VERY divided on whether the soul is immortal or not.

i personally think the soul is imortal, but i havent done reall IN DEPTH study so i can still change my mind.

however. i want proof and scripture.

post away. i am pretty sure this will recieve a gerat deal of attention, and i am interested to know/

[pioneer]

Apr 7, 2009 17:57:30 GMT -5 John said:

i now that many members of BYF are VERY divided on whether the soul is immortal or not.

i personally think the soul is imortal, but i havent done reall IN DEPTH study so i can still change my mind.

however. i want proof and scripture.

post away. i am pretty sure this will recieve a gerat deal of attention, and i am interested to know/

This is annother word that shows up in one letter of Sha'ul
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Simple Y H V H grants everlasting life, He can and will destroy those who appose his will.

Immortal soul came from Greek phylosophy. No where on the pages of Torah will you find anything but Y H V H that is eternal, until one is granted immortality, by Him!

Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

1 Timothy 1:17 To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[John]

that matthew scripture is definately doctrinally shaking.

but how do explain the idea of avrahams bosom? what about Yeshua descending into the pits of hell. what baout demons-- if they can possess than they dont have bodies which would mean their spirit is still living. if this is true than they have been granted immortality be YHVH, or a temporary existance.

what about other scriptures that seem to suggest the idea of an immortal soul. and what exactly do they mean by weeping and gnashing of teeth if there is no life in hell?

and what did yeshua do when he 'descended' if it ws not to free the righteous souls from avrahams bosom?

[pioneer]

Apr 8, 2009 19:02:27 GMT -5 John said:

that matthew scripture is definately doctrinally shaking.

but how do explain the idea of avrahams bosom? what about Yeshua descending into the pits of hell. what baout demons-- if they can possess than they dont have bodies which would mean their spirit is still living. if this is true than they have been granted immortality be YHVH, or a temporary existance.

what about other scriptures that seem to suggest the idea of an immortal soul. and what exactly do they mean by weeping and gnashing of teeth if there is no life in hell?

and what did yeshua do when he 'descended' if it ws not to free the righteous souls from avrahams bosom?

Check your verses, some of your thought are dogmas, nor in the bible in plain language, Abrahams Bosom, may be where we are when the earth is Koshered, but on that your guess is as good as mine.
Came from the mouth of Yeshua, but no where is it verified to my mind, show me!

Shabbay Shalom
Last post CU

[John]

okay. i will get the scriptures when i come back... i am going on vacation to hershey for the week- weekend, so i wont be posting for a few days. when i get back i will get the verses however.

[Jonatan]

I think one - it's good to find biblical evidence - and I'm sure it can be somehow - and if not in Bible, then in Extra-biblical sources. That's why it's sometimes important to study them.
At this account, I would also mention experience of people who were taken out of body. It were all the people whom the Lord had to reveal something. Either they needed to repent from their sins and turn to the Lord, cos they were going into Sheol - into Hell or Lord wanted to show through them that people should not doubt about existence of heaven and hell. More amazing was they were shown that hell lies literally under the earth - somewhere in the Earth core, where any scientist or any "intelligent atheist" (as they call themselves) is not able to reach.

I recommend you some film documentaries. Pity that I can't post here that large amount of MB. So I recommend you some films to see and download, if you are able and have opportunity to do it.
Such as Death and Beyond - by John Osteen
or 23 Minutes in Hell - by Bill Wiese
or Escape from Hell - I don't know the author yet.

'23 Minutes in Hell' by Bill Wiese can be found also in written text - if you won't find movie which is interview with him or if it's too large to download, download the Word document. It shouldn't be any problem to find it I hope. But I recommend it greatly. Every thing he describes is biblical and he shows the evidence of it in Scripture.

Oh well, many of you may say - 'But these testimonies are not written in Bible'. I know! No matter even if it isn't! I'd like to show you that we need to trust also testimonies of people together with the Scripture. Isaiah says so.

19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
(Isaiah 8:19-20)

Those people were or are not spiritist, occultists, nor necromancers - they were (and are) servants of our God.
Verse 20 - Do not fear - they speak according to Word of God - do not fear, they HAVE light of dawn.
Shalom

[John]

i dont know. i thought of something earlier to ask those who dont believe in the immortality of the soul, but i forgot it so i wil post it later when i remeber it.

But the soul is definately different from the body.

why would you ressurect the evil though, just to put them into extinction again? what is the point?

what do you have to say abou the verse in ecclesiastes speaking of the soul going to YHVH?

so those who do not believe in the immortality of the soul: define soul in your view.

[Jonatan]

Human consists of three parts as he was created - Spirit, soul and flesh.

Spirit - is the thing which we have common with God and angels - we have the free will and this comes from God Himself. I don't know if animals can have spirit, rather only soul and flesh, cos they can't go either to heaven of to hell for punishment. Spirit of human is the part made on image of God (Genesis 1:26) - God is Spirit (John 4:24).

Soul - or psyche in Greek is our mood, our thinking, including emotions, will. I believe soul to be in blood - because Hebrew word Nephesh means also blood and also the soul. Life is in blood. Soul may be characterized as bridge between spirit and flesh. In NT, Rav Shaul mentions a lot that there's fight between spirit and fleshly nature that comes from our flesh inherited by Adam, so every human has the inherited nature of fallen human when he/she is born. That's why we have to mortify the fleshly nature and strenghten the reborn spirit (that's possible only for those reborn in Yeshua). Soul is our decider what side to turn - either into side of spirit into everlasting life or into side of flesh - whose end is corruption and death.

Flesh - only material used so that we carry some image. Flesh is only a flesh - material and nothing more. Spirit is that what gives life. Spirit and soul are we, while we are only living - residing in flesh.

Spirit and soul must be immortal - except that one is cast into Sheol (and then into lake of fire) for eternal punishment. Humans cannot do anything to soul or spirit. Because these parts, spirit and soul are not of earthly origin, but of supernatural, heavenly origin. And only supernatural things can affect that what is supernatural.

[John]

i was always taught that the spirit is that which knows, the soul is that which feels.


but many dont know that the teaching that you just presented could derive from the egyptian 'ka' and 'ba' doctrine.

[Jonatan]

I don't know. I also think knowlegde and wisdom capabilities should be abilities of spirit. I agree with you about the soul - that it's more sentimental part, so that it can easily deceive us - that's why we need to put trust on spirit, not on soul, as I think also Rav Shaul mentions it.
Even David says in his Psalms to his soul: Why are you sad, my soul? Await the Lord and His salvation. (- freely quoted - not much time)

[John]

i am presently leaning more towards the "soul and body both die when seperated " theology.

shalom- john

[itiswritten]

Sept 6, 2009 21:45:15 GMT -5 John said:

i am presently leaning more towards the "soul and body both die when seperated " theology.

shalom- john

Sounds interesting John. How many parts of man do you think that there are? Usually it is broken down into spirit, soul and body, but do you think there is another component? I'm also curious as to the make up of those parts. Does the soul have sections or parts? Does the size of souls vary? How much of the soul is retained in the resurrection? Are percentages of the soul saved for most people or the whole thing? Do some lose their soul, but keep their spirit?
Food for thought?

[John]

since i am about to leave for school than i will have to present some answers later- but good questions.

shalom

[John]

How many parts of man do you think that there are? Usually it is broken down into spirit, soul and body, but do you think there is another component? I'm also curious as to the make up of those parts. Does the soul have sections or parts? Does the size of souls vary? How much of the soul is retained in the resurrection? Are percentages of the soul saved for most people or the whole thing? Do some lose their soul, but keep their spirit?
Food for thought?

okay: here goes:

How many parts of man do you think that there are? Usually it is broken down into spirit, soul and body, but do you think there is another component?

there are at least two parts to a person: the spirit and the flesh. both are required to make a living being, and when they are seperated they both die- both need each other to live. \

there is a seperate word for "soul" in hebrew, and multimple terms used for "spirit." this indicates that either there are multiple terms for "spirit" or that there are seperate spirits that the terms denote.

for spirit the most common are Ruach and Neshamah.

for life there is "chayyim"- the sacred result of combining neshamah and the flesh.

for soul, there is Nefesh.

all three terms are used for animals, so neither are to indicate the uniqueness of humans. what exactly the spirit and soul are meant in moses' time is abstract- it is seen as the spiritual counterpart to blood, and sperm carry this spiritual counterpart. it may be similar to the chineeses Qi, which is simply the life force of a person- in chinese philosophy Qi has "blood streams"...

so what i propose is a kabbalistic outlook (remember that for the most part i speak in the "language of branches" so dont try to unerstand this unless you are a kabbalist or familaiar with kabblalistic philosophy):

first let us understand the few central doctrines of kabbalah: the only thing ever to exist forever is the creator. out of him emanates "light" which fills the nothingness. then, God restricted or contracted his glory and made one seperate thing: adam. soon however, adam sinned and his spirit broke into 6000 pieces. (which further broke into 6000 pieces and so on). now, each of these pieces inhabit each of us, and we are given the responsibilty of taking our piece of adam rishon's spirit into tikkun.

the glory that God emanates is the neshamah. when the neshamah enters the Kli (vessel- in other words, our flesh) then it becomes a spirit. we also have a piece of ourselves that is furely the I Am within us- our being, in oher words our soul.

now, Adam continued to live his life in his soul, his being. but his spirit, the spark of the divine within us, broke and comes into each of us. but it only comes within us when we accept Yeshua. this spirit is also called Ruach HaKodesh. when we literally die (seperation of soul and flesh) the ruach leaves us. but the ruach does not die. it is the part that "reincarnates" when it is not taken to The Way of tikkun- but it is not part of us, sou we cannot say that we are being reincarnated, or that we were "alexander the great" in the past or something.

there is more complexity to this, so i will ge tinto it later.

but here is another fact: once the ruach comes in us, it becomes one with our soul like two become one flesh in marriage. when the ruach leaves us, we are literally divorcing ourselves from the spirit of Adonai. so, they become interchangeable when one.

now, i am not trying to make something more complex than it really is- but the soul and spirit do have to do with kabbalah- since kabbalah deals with how God interacts with the world, and the soul and spirit have to do with that, than the soul and spirit are kabbalistic.

I'm also curious as to the make up of those parts. Does the soul have sections or parts? Does the size of souls vary?

in kabbalah, there are 613 sections of the soul that need tikkun- each of them corrsosponding to the 613 mitzvot (all numbers are symbolic, not literal). it can also be said that for our liver, the spiirt has a spiritual counterpart spirit-liver. for our heart, we have a spirit-heart. etc. but this is all he different schools of thought that investiage the soul- no real time for that to b posted here, unless one requests it.

as for size: since the soul is an abstract idea, it does not have size or length or heigh. we may speak symbolically as it having weight, but it does not really have weight. it is like a "point" in geometry, that has no size and cannot be measured, yet a moving point forms a line... it is a paradox.

How much of the soul is retained in the resurrection? Are percentages of the soul saved for most people or the whole thing? Do some lose their soul, but keep their spirit?

all of the soul is retained in the ressurection- both the whole soul and the whole body comes together again and creates literal chai, and then the Ruach of Adonai comes and creates the sacred Chai- the spiritual life, raising us from the deadness of the letter and sinfulness; the ministry of death to one of life.

Wholeness is a theme that R. Ya'akov taught by in both Hebrews and the epistle of his name. we are to be WHOLE and we will be resurrected WHOLE.

some lose their spirit, the spirit of Adonai, while living. we all lose our soul at death, but our bodies will be rejoined with the soul at the resurrection. the Ruach of Adonai gives us True Chai. But not all have this spirit.



i hope that i answered your questions, and did not confuse you even further.

shalom- john


EDIT: let me clarify and correct myself a little concerning the Spirit of Adonai. this may get complex:

after Ha"adam sinned, his spirit (not soul, not his individual I AM or Being) which was the neshamah within, was polluted and broken. it needed to be restored (tikkun).

so it went in each human so that if each person could follow Torah, it would perfect them, bringing them salvation and bring tikkun to the fallen peice of the spirit. but if the Torah was broken, the person would then be cursed and the spirit would go into someone else (Note: the piece of the spirit is NOT a part of the persons being), seeking restoration.

the problem is that Torah calls for perfection. if ou cannot follow the whole of Torah perfectly, you were a lawbreaker, cursed. as R. Ya'akov points out: if a man follows the whole of Torah yet offends one point, he is guilty of transgressing it as a whole. So one time is all it took to **** a soul to hell. only if you followed Torah perfectly would you be able to recieve slavation, the blessing of the law: life.

So, God created a second Adam, Adam Sheni... Yeshua. Yeshua's spirit was seperate one from the spirit of Adam, which was corrupted. Since Yeshua never sinned, Yeshua could recieve salvation through Torah. So, Yeshua fulfilled his duty as Mashiach. Now, his spirit is Ruach HaKodesh, the spirit of God given to Mashiach and then handed to us through Mashiach. Once this spirit is given to one through grace (accepted by faith), this Spirit becomes one with the corrupted spirit of Adam Rishon. this then restores (tikkun) the corrupted spirit. but since you sinned, your soul is corrupted as well. so, your soul becomes one with the soul of Adonai's Ruach, and is atoned, accepted as perfect.

(when i say one, i mean it as two become one flesh in marriage. they do not literally become one spirit).

in other words, we were of the body of Adam Rishon (AR). but God actually created two souls: AR, modeled after (a shadow of) Adam Kodman (AK; also called Adam Sheni [AS]). So, though AR sinned, so his whole body was corrupted (which we were a part of since we are descendants of AR). but Yeshua joined his spirit (not his Soul) with the corrupted spirit of AR and they became one. we are now part of the body of AK/AS. when we are under a sinless head, we are counted (imputed) as sinless as well, even though we are only imputed righteous, not truly righteous (and not through our works did God make us righteous, but by his grace- and through thw works of Yeshua [he is the only one ever to be, and who will ever be, saved by the works of the law for you have to be sinless to recieve righteousness through the law... the law was not meant for our salvation, but as the guide for the Mashiach to be identified as the seed of abraham through whom the promise will be givien to the y'hudim as well as the goyim]- we beceome righteous.)

this is, again, very complex.


now i have to go do my french homework, so shalom to he who read this, even greater shalom to he who understands by the grace of God who is the Giver of Wisdom.

shalom (again)

[anochria]

Here's another way to break up the different views on the subject:

DICHOTOMISTS have seen man as a 'duality' composed of two distinct parts: body and soul (or spirit).

Body, to the dichotomist, is usually seen in a straightforward manner as our physical body- the tangible 'stuff' our souls are housed in. It may also include our emotions, and even our personality.

The soul (used interchangeably with spirit) is seen as the intangible part of us that is our true essence- the seat of our will and ultimate identity.

Some versions of this 'dualism' (mainly Greek philosophical constructs and Gnostic strains of Chrsitianity) have seen the soul as utterly superior to the body, trapped in earthly, inferior (or in some cases, evil) flesh.

Many would cite Paul's frequent use of the idea that there is a conflict in man between "spirit" and "flesh" as supporting this view of the nature of man (Jesus also uses these terms). I think this interpretation of Jesus and Paul can be easily misunderstood, but more on that later.

Variations on this view have probably been dominant for quite some time in Western society and Christian thought.

TRICHOTOMISTS break the human essence into 3 categories: body, soul, and spirit (separating soul from spirit, as opposed to dichotomists who maintain that the two terms are equivalent).

Body is seen here as only the basic physical components of our humanity.

Soul is seen as our emotions/ personality, etc..

and Spirit is usually seen as our ultimate identity (from what I can gather)- the place where the 'throne' of our life is. Our spirit is either dead or alive. If it is submitted to our soul, then it is dead. If it is submitted to God, it is alive and rules our soul.

There are striking parellels between this view and Freud's view of human nature (id, ego, and superego), but perhaps only general ones.

Some of us in the group are familiar with this view because it is held by teachers such as Graham Cooke.

PHYSICALISTS (or those who view man as UNITY) see man as indivisable. A strong version of this maintains that man is nothing apart from his body. Part of his body may or may not (depending on which variation you're talking about here) involve a soul and/or spirit, but it is seen as intrinsically linked to a body.

This stance finds various advocates from atheists to Christians. Christian identification with some version of this perspective relies heavily on stressing the Jewish/ Christian doctrine of physical resurrection.

[John]

i am now a physaclist, though i started as dichotomist, then a trichotomist.\

i think that there is a soul spirit and body, but that none can be seperated for they would not survive unless they all existed together. by soul i mean each mans peronsl I Am, by spirit i mean the corrupted ruach (for messianics, the corrupted ruach becomes one with the pure ruach of Yeshua) and by flesh i mean the physical body.

humans have irrducable complexity concerning the soul and spirit. i think that the soul and flesh are both all that is needed to make up a chai (life), but that the spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) is needed to create Sacred Chai (mataphysical resurrection that R. SHa'ul speaks of).


the soul spirit and body are all one. you cannot seperate one from another. (that is, you cannot separate the corrupted spirit- it just becomes one with the spirit of AK)

shalom- john

[anochria]

Sept 10, 2009 14:33:27 GMT -5 John said:

it. i think that the soul and flesh are both all that is needed to make up a chai (life), but that the spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) is needed to create Sacred Chai

I think Starbucks uses different ingredients to make their chai.
;D

[anochria]

the soul spirit and body are all one. you cannot seperate one from another.

How then do you explain the appearance of bodiless spirits/ souls in the Bible?

[John]

I think Starbucks uses different ingredients to make their chai.

lol

How then do you explain the appearance of bodiless spirits/ souls in the Bible?

i have yet do decide and have to investigate scripture. i personally think that b'nai elohim are resurrected men of the first world that are to minister to this world, while there are three classes of angels that are not men (seraphim, cherubim, ofanim) who ministered to the b'nai elohim before their resurrection.

we are to be resurrected in the future and become ministers or "bodily sons of God" who minister to the next world- olam haba.

angels that are named like michael gabriel, metatron, etc, are not really angels but different titles of Yeshua. angels are just used as literary devices to represent that attribute of Yeshua. for example, michael (also called melchiaedek in some literature) is not a literal angel, but represents Jesus as the high priest. metatron ybolizes Yeshua as mdiator, owner of the temple, etc. gabriel represents Yeshua as the one who gives life (the shofar at the ressurection)... etc. this is why named angels are equated with different sefirot (each sefirot represents aspects of YHVH, which the angels represent in role... ie, tiferet is the mediator of the upper and lower sefirot, and the angel equated with that is metatron, Yeshua as mediator.)

there are 7 named angels called archangels who are not really angels either. in is, the spirit of God is said to have 7 pairs of attributes. in revelation, Yochanon calls these "the seven spirits of God" showing that each of the seven archangels represent each of those attribute of the Ruach.

as for demons, any thing that rebels against God is dead. God would not just let demons live on and not send them to hell if he told humans that if they rebel they ar going to hell. sincei believe that all rebellious humans are going to sh'ol, than i think that all former rebellious humans are going to sh'ol, the belly of the earth, as well.

but Jesus cast out demons didnt he? Jesus did do "exorcisms, but isee those as healings. Jesus taught within the mindset that the people had. he often used a persons will power to heal them (ie, medically if you believe something, your body will react to it). but a person who believed that they had a demon would never be healed if you told them that they didnt have a demon. so whether Yeshua believed in demons or not, he "cast out demons" when he healed a psychological disease. john meier explains that no matter how new or revolutionary a teachers teachings may be, he still has to find a way to communicate them within the constraints of the language and culture that he is teaching. Paul understood this for sure since he used Torah to teach the jews, and pagan poems and such to teach the pagans... how much more would Yeshua bring this principle into practice?

so demons were psychological problems like they are now, and Yeshua simply healed a person within these cultural constraints.

shalom

EDIT: ps- does anyone need me to clarify on my stance... its really complex stuff and i want to make sure everyone understands.

[anochria]

I wasn't referring to angels and demons. I was referring to human spirits, such as Samuel's spirit which Saul asked the witch of Endor to call up... or the souls of the martyrs in Revelation... or the rich man and Lazarus in the parable.

Even the disciples believed in ghosts. Why?

Because the Jews did believe that the soul/spirit could exist apart from the body, but in a much lesser, incomplete form.