anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Oct 12, 2009 20:25:47 GMT -5
John,
I have a question. As your theological outlook develops and changes based on your studies how has your view on the necessity of the Law for the follower of Yeshua changed as well? With your current views on Inspiration it's hard to imagine that you still insist on followers of Yeshua doing their best to follow every aspect of the Torah possible.
This isn't meant to be a challenge, but I'm just curious.
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Post by John on Oct 19, 2009 20:09:37 GMT -5
what a question! i have an answer... but its a long one. so ill tell you what: when i get my ntbk to answer itiswritten about the priesthood, i will also respond to this. it deserves a pretty long answer. if i have time btwn my school essays and such, i will probably write an article directed towards you.
i am glad you asked.
shalom
PS- i believe Torah IS to be followed in every aspect possible, but i do not believe that Genesis Exodus Leviticus and Deuteronomy are that Torah... Torah is the Logos, the truth to be followed by all; the pentatuech is the hebrew expression of this eternal truth. it has been corrupted in some aspects (like rabbincal dogma), like every other religion. Qur'an, Tao Te Ching, Tripitaka, Upanishads, etc- all of those are cultural and religious expressions of Torah/ Logos/ Word/ Way/ Tao, etc. This universal truth that is the teaching of God.
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anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Oct 20, 2009 17:57:42 GMT -5
I look forward to it. Interestingly, I think we are now going to agree on some new points and have some new disagreements as well  |
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Post by John on Oct 20, 2009 20:32:14 GMT -5
i agree completely
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Oct 21, 2009 5:53:47 GMT -5
I look forward to it. Interestingly, I think we are now going to agree on some new points and have some new disagreements as well You agree something I didn't understand before! Well, as do I - if such is the case. I never imagined term Torah to be applied to Logos - I thought Torah is ONLY GEN-DEUT + Joshua, Judges, and a few books, not including prophets, Brit Chadasha, neither Psalms, nor Kohelet... Of course, in such case I am a man of the Torah - man of Logos! Nothing may contadict Logos! And everything in Genesis to Deuteronomy, every thing counted as sin in some degree has to be dealt with even by us. If there's something in Gen-Deut. that needs to be washed by blood (sin offering), we do this by method of New Covenant - by the blood of Yeshua. Only some things, as eating kosher/non-kosher food applies only to Israel - for us, messianic noachides there was commanded to eat every living thing as was said to Noach. Even in Peter's vision concerning Cornelius and his house, Lord said to him: "What Lord has purified, you do not consider impure!" - this had also some meaning in literal sense. Even Shaul mention eating food that we don't know of what origin is it - and he writes that it is sanctified by prayer and thanksgiving. And Shaul writes similar in his letters to gentilic messianics, concerning festivals, food and acurate or inacurate day of shabbat, etc. What do you think? |
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Post by John on Oct 21, 2009 14:49:57 GMT -5
i think there is one law for all, as Leviticus says, but i dont think every part of that law applies to everyone. there are some parts only applicable to women, some only to men, some only to that time, some only to that culture, some only to that person, etc.
Torah means teachings. the Torah is not a book. it is the teachings of God. the penatuech is Gods teachings to the hebrews fo rthat time, and in many ways this time, though not all of it is as applicable. The role of the rabbis in the hebrew culture is to progress and modernize the teachings of the pentatuech.
the Qur'an is the teachings of God to the Arabs for that time.
the gospels are the teachings to the christians at that time.
the Tao Te Ching are the teachings to the Chinese at that time.
and many other teachings were oral. The same Torah that moses taught was taught by abraham and adam and noah- though the same commandments were not given. the teachings of god are revealed in omre ways than a book. in fact, if that book is fallible (which i belief it is) than there would have to be more ways than one to recieve revelation.
the Torah is not binding on anyone unless they accept it as their own. as long as the person is seeking the truht, they can be a humanist and still go to heaven. they dont have to choose a certain religion to go to heaven, they just have to deny the falsehood in the religion they choose... and NO religion is infallible.
ask qquestions because i know i didn texplain this well.
shalom
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Oct 22, 2009 14:17:49 GMT -5
Right... and don't you think that in Yeshua we have to have infallible way? Brit Chadasha is fulfillment of all prophets and all that other religions are out of.
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Post by John on Oct 22, 2009 14:56:33 GMT -5
i dont totally understand what you were saying but... i will answer it the best i can.
Yeshua is perfect, but christianity is not.
to claim that christianity is infallible is proposterous- it was christians that killed thousands of people during the crusades!
i dont know if that was what you were asking, so i will stop here
shalom
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Oct 23, 2009 4:25:45 GMT -5
Well, why do you say about HISTORICAL CHRISTIANITY ONLY? It is also part of you - you are Messianic. I wanted to say - updated Judaism into Messianism (well, we follow only Yeshua, and HE is the word) - that should be infallible. You can't compare true faith of Abraam, Jicchaak veJaakov, (that even apostles held, and we hold it now) with other religions!?  |
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Post by John on Oct 23, 2009 19:22:17 GMT -5
well first, we dont know if abraham ever really existed in the first place, though there is some sugestive evidence that he did. secondly, he wasnt jewish, muslim, or christian either. his faith couldve been and most likely was a unitarian one. judaism was started by mosheh. abraham just founded two nations.
we dont know what his faith was, but we know it wasnt judaism, islam, or christianity for neither was in existance.
once again i am a little divided on what this means. but i will answer the best i can:
we can have metaphysical beliefs, but we must not reject the physical facts that have been proven.
we can beleif in a religion, but we cannot reject the findings of science (NOTE: i never said that we cant reject that those findings prove one notion or the other, but we cant reject the actual findings. ie, evidence for neodarwinism cant be rejected, but it doesnt mean you cant reject neo darwinism as a whole if the evidence doesnt prove the notion mainstream scientists say it does)
we can accept the christian faith, but we can never reject the historical findings of christainity.
the thing i find ironic with evangelical christianity is that it accepts archeological and scientific findings that support the bible, but any finding that rejects THEIR INTERPRETATION of the bibile is automatically wrong. we CANNOT reject some of the findings of sciences and accept others- its all or nothing. and rejecting them makes no sense anyway.
nothing i am saying has any substance so i will stop here- i dont really know what i am supposed to be answering.
shalom
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Oct 25, 2009 16:07:30 GMT -5
Well, there ARE religions, but there is ONE TRUE UNDENIABLE Truth. And it's not in religion, nor in science. Just relationship of G-d.
That's about "religion" - I think The Way shouldn't be called "religion" in comparison with traditional famous religions.
I'll ask you, John. Do you believe that Shekinah in the Tabernacle and Acts of Apostles are truth? Do you believe it's truth what happened to Ananias and Saphira? If yes, then you shouldn't consider The Way as thought it was such a "religion", that is just only made up by men.
As for the scientific findings and physical world - We may see whatever is found, El Shaddai is mighty to change it. It is absolutely POSSIBLE that Satan can make forgeries by supernatural way - and of course that God can do anything (certainly He cannot do anything against Himself, His Word - cannot deny Himself).
You're right! It's ironic! Why? Because they sticked to that [edited] Textual Criticism to deny supernatural origin of that what happened. We may find anything, any scientific findings. It won't make me uneasy, why?
Because anyway, the right interpretation of anything will be through Bible and HS. Have they found bones of so-called "dinosaurs"? And what?! May it be! It doesn't say that darwinian theory would be right in a slightest degree. Just, it's a great chance for the Book of Enoch to explain everything about it.
NOTE FROM JOHN (administrator): cursing will not be tolerated on thsi forum. Jonatan has been banned for two days and stripped of his staff position, warning level now being 25%. You have been warned.
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Post by John on Oct 29, 2009 15:26:06 GMT -5
The Way is not the truth either. it is a PATH or a WAY to the truth. but that same philosophy can be misconstrued to be a path unto death.
the shekinah- yes i believe it could have been literal (although i personally find much more beauty in seeing it metaphorically). i believe that Annanais and Saphira are most likely the results of a midrash- conveying the message that we should be honest with God. but they could have been real people [to/instead].
but that does not make the bible completely valid, nor the modern christianity the truth either. the bible has mistakes in it, and it was written by men. it is also not completetly historical.
[in fact, the gospels were given their own place in the literary canon of terms because the writing style of the gospels are so unique and NOTHING like an ANCIENT OR MODERN biography. ]
the shekinah being present either represents that they are FAR from the truth and interpreting a demonic presence as shekinah, or they are RIGHT ON THE DOT concerning the truth- and i take the latter to be true. their conduct recorded definitely makes it clear that they were very godly people. but i believe that the sh'kinah presence can be accessed by even a muslim or jew or christian or daoist, etc if they just follow the truth- their religion is simply the path to that truth.
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Post by Jonatan Guest mode on Nov 6, 2009 7:35:12 GMT -5
[EDITED]
NOTE FROM JOHN: i will not allow people who were suspended from the forum temporarily to post.
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Nov 8, 2009 8:59:35 GMT -5
"If you were so appaled at my "cursing", then I might tell you that even some godly people "cursed" in meaning like that, mocked other false "gods" and their false religions
and it wasn't sin. Even that speaking against false religions and their practices is not sin - it's not Lashon Haraa.
Something was okay with David's MTF, he was such strict and firm and uncompromising, but this is sometimes another - liberal extreme, isn't it, John? Maybe, sometimes, you should admit it.
The thing I was very marvelled about you, was what I believed some years ago, but true followers of Yeshua have strictly shown me in Torah, in Bible through brochures and magazines of (now) my assembly what is STRICT TRUTH and what isn't.
I was also ecumenical-based - such as you now. I also believed that many religions have similar moral laws and that may be "equal to Torah" and that "they all walk the way to truth"
Look, this opinion is New-age! Not even ecumenical, but SYNCRETICAL with all religions!!!
Let me guess - do you care what others say to you, whether you are "tolerant" to their religions or not?
If such is your case, remember that if every people liked you, woe to you, because this way evil people treated false prophets.
Where is then ONE TRUE WAY Yeshua learnt? - and where is One true God? "
(NOTE: This is not the quite the same post as before - you know, John, what am I talking about)
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Post by John on Nov 8, 2009 17:29:49 GMT -5
whether you believe it is okay or not (which it isnt) i will not allow it. end of discussion. you want the strictness that david had and i will give it to you. i can suspend your account for more than a few days or ban you because you are christian like he did ! dont you dare compare david and me like that again, or you bet you will be banned. end of discussion NOW. if you wish to make comments it willl be done over PM.
i dont think this is the liberal extreme, because i disagree with a LOT of what liberals say. i do however bleieve that each religion is an espression of the primordial word- the logos, the Torah, the Om, etc.
i have been in this strict truth that you are speaking of and it prvided more bondage than freedom. perhaps our paths are different.
i do care what others say. my whole point in life is to CARE ABOUT OTHERS. i am tolerant of their bliefs yes- i cannot force them to believe anything. if they are wrong however, they are wrong. i am not going to try to force them to beleive, only guide them to take the path that God has worked out for them. only they can take it- i can only provide them with the tools to take it.
i do believe that MOST religions can AT BEST (though not always) be expressions of the universal truth. the logos, the torah, the om, the primordial word.
look you are going to have to watch what you say on this forum. be respectful or leave. i dont mind talking about my beliefs but you are not going to disresepect me or my beliefs just as i am ot yours. shalom please- i wish no argument to come about. only debate.
there is surely one way but there are many trails within that way and many ways to take it. i can run the path r walk it or take a trolley or i can go zigzag or strait and effetiently etc. religions are paths within the Way. philosophies are paths within the Way the De within the Dao.
i believe in Yeshua. and i believe that there are different expressions of the One True Way. i am choosing one of them and appreciating the others.
shalom
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Nov 19, 2009 10:49:18 GMT -5
Well, I thought of this forum to be only in-sider community with one faction only. As for the forum is called Barukh Yeshua, reflecting one stream only (that's Yeshuaic).
But you have the idea to make it ecumenical? Even with gospel-preaching activity for others to convert from one "way" to another?
The forums can be various. One can be gospel-based to influence (I did not say to force by might) others to convert, while the other can be only factional, where only members of one faction are allowed to, discussing doctrines within the faction.
What type is this forum like?
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Post by John on Nov 19, 2009 15:20:58 GMT -5
it is called Barukh Yeshua because it is made for Messianic Jews and possibly christians. But muslims and rabbinic jews and Hindus, etc are welcome to join the site if they wish.
However, I beleive that this is one path for them to choose. this forum is dedicated to Messianic judaism but it is not exclusive.
shalom
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Jonatan
B'nai Elohim
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Posts: 260
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Post by Jonatan on Nov 25, 2009 10:39:12 GMT -5
Then, as messianics and christians, we must say plainly and simply what the Word of God says, to confront unscriptural and unholy-spiritual thoughts.
Gospel is spiritually military matter.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2 Corinthians 10:3-6
Knowledge of God - thru Torah and Brit Chadasha. Thru what Yshua have finished on the cross. God is not schizophrenic - He didn't ever say that religions of (pagan) nations would be also correct as the Law, Prophets and whole His Word.
So what does He call us for? Spiritual conquest! Religions of nations are under fallen angels - and we have to take care of it. Preach Gospel! Unbind the bound people with false thoughts.
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