anochria
B'nai Elohim
Pastor of Aletheia Christian Fellowship
Posts: 194
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Post by anochria on Sept 12, 2009 23:29:09 GMT -5
I'm going to start a new thread on your comments on angels and demons, because that's a pretty different topic don't you think?
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Post by John on Sept 12, 2009 23:53:36 GMT -5
yeah. i agree completely. but i expressed it because it kindof tied into "spirits apart from bodies." thank you for posting.
shalom
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Post by pioneer on Feb 21, 2011 3:41:06 GMT -5
Outside of the Holy Spirit, most other spirits mentioned in the Tanack are evil. The new Greek Testament where-in we get immortal soul the spirit is a part of the trinity of man, body/soul/spirit.
If your god is Greek then you must be a trinity with an immortal soul.
If you are an adopted son of God(The God of Israel) then your body when the breath leaves it, the soul ceases to be. Ec 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
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Post by itiswritten on Feb 21, 2011 23:38:37 GMT -5
The scripture does also make a distinction between the Spirit of G-d knows the things of G-d, while the "spirit of man" knows the things of man.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
I don't see the spirit, soul and body as being trinitarian any more than the outer court, holy place and holy of holies. There are lots of things that have three parts in the Bible as well as things that have two parts, four parts, five, seven, twelve, etc. The trinity theology does not make any actual truth less of a truth. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning here.
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Post by pioneer on Feb 22, 2011 12:09:00 GMT -5
The point of the post is that the spirit in man is given by God, when man dies the spirit given by God goes back to God who gave it. So all the mentions of man's spirit is a living man a spirit endowed by God to do the will of God. Most all the mentions of spirits outside of man are familiar spirits(necromancers) demons ect., etc. <('')> In Hebrew thought, a living being is a soul(dust+breath of God), to say body, soul & spirit is double speak. I personally have a big problem with Greek thought processes, especially when it over-rides the clear Hebrew meaning. Shalom
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Post by itiswritten on Feb 23, 2011 0:08:48 GMT -5
In Hebrew thought, a living being is a soul(dust+breath of God), to say body, soul & spirit is double speak. I personally have a big problem with Greek thought processes, especially when it over-rides the clear Hebrew meaning. Shalom Shaul (Paul), the Pharisee of Pharisees, blameless concerning the Torah, who studied at the feet of the great Torah teacher Gamalel could hardly be classified as "Greek thinking." There are distinct words in Hebrew and in Greek for body, soul and spirit. No double speak, just Bible and Hebrew language.
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Post by pioneer on Feb 24, 2011 12:56:32 GMT -5
In Hebrew thought, a living being is a soul(dust+breath of God), to say body, soul & spirit is double speak. I personally have a big problem with Greek thought processes, especially when it over-rides the clear Hebrew meaning. Shalom Shaul (Paul), the Pharisee of Pharisees, blameless concerning the Torah, who studied at the feet of the great Torah teacher Gamalel could hardly be classified as "Greek thinking." There are distinct words in Hebrew and in Greek for body, soul and spirit. No double speak, just Bible and Hebrew language. Pardon my ignorance, but in my studies, the words "body and soul" are not in the bible! I personally cannot trust completely Greek commentary. 1Th 5:23 ¶ May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Most people take Sha'ul as gospel, but his writings are liken to Rashi, both are commentary on the bible. On top of that we don't have the original documents to prove that this is what Sha'ul actually spoke those words in one sentance. Could this be likened to _____19 ¶ for being free from all men, to all men I made myself servant, that the more I might gain; 20 and I became to the Jews as a Jew, that Jews I might gain; to those under law as under law, that those under law I might gain; 21 to those without law, as without law that I might gain those without law; 22 I became to the infirm as infirm, that the infirm I might gain; to all men I have become all things, that by all means I may save some. Again my problem is with the use of these words to make a trinity! Those three words by themselves are not a problem in Hebrew or Greek, but together, not from the mouth of God! For me to put those words together in reference to bible is in effect adding to the bible. Forbidden! I personally do not think Sha'ul ever did this. Shalom
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Post by itiswritten on Feb 24, 2011 19:10:56 GMT -5
Pardon my ignorance, but in my studies, the words "body and soul" are not in the bible! I personally cannot trust completely Greek commentary. 1Th 5:23 ¶ May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Most people take Sha'ul as gospel, but his writings are liken to Rashi, both are commentary on the bible. On top of that we don't have the original documents to prove that this is what Sha'ul actually spoke those words in one sentance. Could this be likened to _____19 ¶ for being free from all men, to all men I made myself servant, that the more I might gain; 20 and I became to the Jews as a Jew, that Jews I might gain; to those under law as under law, that those under law I might gain; 21 to those without law, as without law that I might gain those without law; 22 I became to the infirm as infirm, that the infirm I might gain; to all men I have become all things, that by all means I may save some. Again my problem is with the use of these words to make a trinity! Those three words by themselves are not a problem in Hebrew or Greek, but together, not from the mouth of God! For me to put those words together in reference to bible is in effect adding to the bible. Forbidden! I personally do not think Sha'ul ever did this. Shalom What people do with individual words, concepts or groupings from the Bible really has nothing to do with what is actual truth. We shouldn't try to interpret scripture in a way based upon what others do or don't do with various theologies. The trinity doctrine or the opposition of it, should have no bearing on how we read or interpret scripture. The scriptures tell us that formed Adam from the adamah (ground) and that God breathed into Adam the "breath of life" nishmat chayim. After this was breathed into the body that had been formed, Adam became a nephesh chayaah which is usually translated as "living soul." I realize that neshesh could simple be interpreted as "being" or the like. Regardless of what term we put to it, it is a different word that describes what Adam became after the other two things were put together. We see from various passages that man has a spirit or ruach. However, we also see that some men were filled with the Ruach Ha Kodesh. (Holy Spirit of God) There are various Hebrew words that are translated as body whether we use a Christian translation or Jewish. Therefore we see words such as body, spirit, soul, heart and other words used to describe aspects of man. The trinity doctrine is irrelevent whether man has a spirit, soul and body or not. It is either true or it isn't regardless of what trinitarians may or may not believe or say. The scripture tells us that Enoch was and then was not. What the rapture people do or don't do with the scripture has nothing to do with whatever truth is being conveyed by the scriptures. What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't manipulate scripture or dismiss certain parts because of the way it might be used by certain groups. Trinitarians will take certain scriptures to try to prove their theology. We shouldn't reject or dismiss scriptures to establish an antitrinitarian view. We have to be careful about putting a tool to the stones, because we will end up defiling it just like others have. Let God be true and every man a liar. No lie is of the truth whether a baptist lie or a Messianic lie. If we have no agenda to make things turn out any particular way, we are much more likely to be able to see more truth. I hope that makes sense. I have just found that when we have an agenda to try to make things turn out a certain way, we cannot be totally objective. Shalom
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Post by pioneer on Feb 25, 2011 0:29:54 GMT -5
My agenda is the emet/truth. As I have stated the "Word of God" is true, what we sometimes hold in our hands and call the word of God must be filtered through the Torah to maintain the emet/truth. 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Since we are saying somewhat the same thing, I do not quite understand or make sense of of the forgoing posts. As they seem to be in opposition to my original post, wherin I state that the immortal soul is not God breathed. Contrived via Greek philosophy.
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Post by itiswritten on Feb 25, 2011 13:07:07 GMT -5
Yes, I think we are essentially in agreement on most of this. We agree that man does not have an immortal soul and this is a Greek and other cultures concept. I was just trying to show that that eventhough the immortal soul theology is a fallacy that the concept of the existence of a body, soul and spirit can be supported by the Bible and has nothing to do with the immortal soul or trinity theology.
It is also probably worth mentioning that although we often see a strong contrast in Hebrew vs Greek thinking that within each of these views are often a lot of diversity. In many if not most cases there is not a single Hebraic viewpoint on a particular issue and to be fair the same could often be said for the Greek viewpoints too. It so happens in our culture however that most of the religious beliefs are of a Greek mindset which is a different way of seeing and understanding than that of the Hebraic culture and background of the Bible.
Shabbat Shalom
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Post by pioneer on Feb 25, 2011 18:14:00 GMT -5
My pet peave; Greek divine vs Hebrew divine.
Shabbat Shalom
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